335 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

It should continue to slowly recover. Hang in there.

[invalidusername]

I remember those days well - we have all been there.

 

Have you heard of Claire Weekes at all? Or if you are not much of a reader, look at David Daish's vlogs on YouTube - they helped me so much at this stage

 

https://www.youtube....ockMan58/videos

[RoaldDahl]

He guys:

 

Update as I am on day 44:

 

Anxiety is still there. It might be due to the lower dosages of Oxazepam (I knew this before I started with it but it was a lifesaver at the moment, have experience coming of it). Can work a bit again. Non stop a low hanging anxiety in my body (heavy legs especially). During the evenings the anxiety is worse, cannot relax and highly nervous. Really hope the Citalopram will work harder. At 5mg of Oxazepam a day. After the coming weekend I want to be on 0 mg. Think I will give my final judgement about the transition in the next 2 weeks. 

The insane anxiety attacks which I had the first 2 weeks are a thing of the past, haven't had anything remotely close to it. Still anxious to go for long walks or a drive. Need to build up everything from scratch again. 

I am a lot more tired compared to the first 3 weeks however. 

Still have load ringing in my ears. 

 

Does this sound familiar IUN?

 

PS: I bought suntheanine. Should I start using it?

 

Positive note: I do find myself whistling a lot more during the day. 

[RoaldDahl]

 

[fishinghat]

Considering that you are weaning oxazepam right now I would wait on the Suntheanine., I don't like to make too many changes at once so I can tell what helps and what hurts. It is up to you though.

[RoaldDahl]

Considering that you are weaning oxazepam right now I would wait on the Suntheanine., I don't like to make too many changes at once so I can tell what helps and what hurts. It is up to you though.

 

Thanks mate. Will start taking it then after I am of the Oxazepam. Going to have 4 days of. Will reduce it to zero the coming days. 

[RoaldDahl]

Considering that you are weaning oxazepam right now I would wait on the Suntheanine., I don't like to make too many changes at once so I can tell what helps and what hurts. It is up to you though.

 

It seems like the Anxiety the last 2 days became a lot worse. Do you think this might be rebound anxiety due to Oxazepam? I gotta push through. It's horrible again. 

 

Extreme flashes in my face like I did after the first or second week of quitting Cymbalta, thoughts of extreme anxiety (can't handle this, losing control etc). It really not fun anymore. 

[fishinghat]

Oxazepam withdrawal. The bad symptoms may last a month or so but will pass. I found that NAC (n-acetylcysteine, a antioxidant helped me with symptoms). It isn't a cure but helps. It is an OTC supplement.

[RoaldDahl]

Oxazepam withdrawal. The bad symptoms may last a month or so but will pass. I found that NAC (n-acetylcysteine, a antioxidant helped me with symptoms). It isn't a cure but helps. It is an OTC supplement.

Thanks, just odered 600mg. Lets see. It's hell. 

[invalidusername]

Hey RD...

 

Sorry for my late input - stressful week.

 

Yes - all that you said is very familiar and I agree wholeheartedly with Hat about holding off. One thing at a time.

 

Don't be too hasty with getting to 0mg. You have done well to reduce down to 5mg. This is a very low dose, so if you need it on standby for a few more days, then do not hold back. No first prize in this race.

 

I never got around to trying the NAC route, but I remember the days that Hat and myself were discussing it and reading various papers. I had too much going thru my system at the time to throw more bollocks into the mix, but I will for sure like to hear how you get on... and get your name in the eBook

 

IUN

[RoaldDahl]

Update guys:

 

So last night after talking to my doc and my non stop anxiety being there (and not feeling the Citalopram doing enough after six weeks) we have decided to up the dosis to 30mg. I took it yesterday. Today I feel shitty, my muscles all cramped up and nervous as hell. Probably because I had 2 really worrying and bad days on Thursday and Friday. 

I will give this a shot, hope it works. 

 

Hope you're all good btw IUN.  

[RoaldDahl]

Just another update:

 

This day is horrible. Really really horrible. Upped my dosis of Citalopram. Had anxiety as bad as in the first week I quite Cymbalta. Upped my Oxazepam to 20mg. Not really working. I don't know what to do anymore. Sometimes feel like dying. Insane panick attacks. Maybe i'll visit the hospital tomorrow. 

[fishinghat]

Upping the dose of a benzo is a 50/50 chance of success. Upping the Citalopram will only control the serotonin and not the adrenaline like Cymbalta. The oxazepam was helping control that. Normally to come off 30 mg of oxazepam takes about a year. You have basically went cold turkey. Stay at the 20 mg for a few days more to be sure there will be no relief before panicking. The cold turkey oxazepam withdrawal can last 6 months or more but will fade. Was your dr aware of you reducing the oxazepam?

[fishinghat]

You know, I was just thinking. Both hydroxyzine and clonidine are effective on adrenaline/benzo withdrawal. I would recommend you try the clonidine first. Usual dose for it is 0.1 mg 3 times a day. Minimum starting dose of hydroxyzine is 25 mg 3 times per day and an additional 50 mg before bed. Neither drug is addictive nor has a withdrawal.

[invalidusername]

...and I can tell you from experience that Citalopram can throw you out of whack for a good couple of weeks. Regardless of the fact that it doesn't control norepinephrine as Hat rightly said, it still has a habit of throwing some anxiety at you when you change dose - up OR down.

 

Things will settle, and again, go easy with the benzo withdrawl...

[RoaldDahl]

Thanks for the advice fishing. My Doc told me that clonidine is a big nono in combination with citalopram. I have informed her about my reduction of oxazepam. I have suggested to get on a long lasting benzo which is easier to get of like lorazopam in which i can schedule it down nicely in six weeks. What do you think?

 

Btw I have stopped working out for 2 weeks now and I feel worse than I did before

[fishinghat]

Lorazepam is rated as the second worse benzo to come off of. (Clonazepam is considered the worst.)  It normally takes 1 to 2 years to wean off a 1 mg/day dose of lorazepam.  I am not sure why he would say they are incompatible. I know many people who are on both at the same time. I will do a quick check and see if there is something I am missing there.

[fishinghat]

The only thing I could find was that both can lower blood pressure but that is true of any anti-anxiety med. That includes benzos, hydroxyzine, clonidine, ssri, snri and tricyclic as well as most of the antipsychotic meds. That is up to the dr to decide I guess. What a shame. It would really help.

[RoaldDahl]

The thing that I can find is Diazepam Fishing. They have schedules to get of it in six weeks. Maybe I should look into that? I will ask again for the clonidine.

 

If I push through and can get the Clonidine, can I stop immediately with the Oxazepam fishing?

[RoaldDahl]

Update:

Woke up this morning early again. I am in week 6 of the Citalopram after upping the dose to 30mg 2 days ago. 

 

Feeling better than yesterday but still bad. 

 

Confused where most of these symptoms come from, could they still be Cymbalta withdrawal effects even though I am on the Citalopram? Is it purely the Oxazepam? (I'm a big guy just like you IUN and Fishing, 20mg aint THAT much). I also don't know what to do with my work. I can't function like this. 

Today I will specifically ask for the clonidine. 

[RoaldDahl]

Update 2: 

 

Have spoken with the doctor about Diazepam and Clonidine. She claims that Clonidine won't have immediately effect vs my huge anxiety (she might be right) but she is looking into it. 

 

My body seems to handle the oxazepam poorly. I get huge anxiety attacks after taking it. Maybe it's better if I use Diazepam to calm the hell down and work on a well regulated schedule. What do you guys think?

 

I was THIS close to calling the emergency service and have myself taken into a clinic, I want to avoid it at all costs due to my job. 

 

I think I will opt for the diazepam, my body really needs rest. It feels like I've been running marathons for the last 8 weeks. Completely depleted of energy. 

 

We have opted for a 6 week diazepam schedule to reduce it to zero. We will consider the clonidine after it. 

[invalidusername]

First up, unfortunately, the dose does not directly correspond with out size. It doesn't work in the same way as muscle mass or metabolism. Neurochemicals can fluctuate between person regardless of their weight, height, bmi and so forth, so don't consider that. A good example is that when I take my Kratom, I need around 4-5gm whereas the wife, nearly a whole foot shorter than me, needs 6gm+. Granted this has more to do with metabolism, but is it still the brain chemical compounds that are affected at the end.

 

I cannot speak for Clonidine, but Diazepam has worked for me, but much like any other benzo, it will lose efficacy the more you take and will eventually require higher and higher doses, so keep using it as you are on an as and when basis. 

 

Hat is more one for benzos than myself, and has far more knowledge and experience, but I can tell you he will agree with the above. 

 

Again, I need to reiterate that Citalopram WILL make you feel this way in the first few days. Trust me - I have been on and off Cotalopram FOUR TIMES now, and every time is the same. Your brain is all over the shop at the moment and you REALLY do have my sympathy, but your brain was a part finished puzzle, and it is like some kid has come along and messed it all up and you need to find the right peices again.

[RoaldDahl]

First up, unfortunately, the dose does not directly correspond with out size. It doesn't work in the same way as muscle mass or metabolism. Neurochemicals can fluctuate between person regardless of their weight, height, bmi and so forth, so don't consider that. A good example is that when I take my Kratom, I need around 4-5gm whereas the wife, nearly a whole foot shorter than me, needs 6gm+. Granted this has more to do with metabolism, but is it still the brain chemical compounds that are affected at the end.

 

I cannot speak for Clonidine, but Diazepam has worked for me, but much like any other benzo, it will lose efficacy the more you take and will eventually require higher and higher doses, so keep using it as you are on an as and when basis. 

 

Hat is more one for benzos than myself, and has far more knowledge and experience, but I can tell you he will agree with the above. 

 

Again, I need to reiterate that Citalopram WILL make you feel this way in the first few days. Trust me - I have been on and off Cotalopram FOUR TIMES now, and every time is the same. Your brain is all over the shop at the moment and you REALLY do have my sympathy, but your brain was a part finished puzzle, and it is like some kid has come along and messed it all up and you need to find the right peices again.

 

Cheers mate for the very good and long answer. Would you suggest for me to hold of the Diazepam for the next 4 days and see if the Citalopram settles down a bit more? Did you get suicidal thoughts when increasing the dosage? Feeling of completely losing control? Sweating/cramped up body as well?

 

I opted for the Diazepam as my body is not happy with the Oxazepam anymore. With Diazepam I can actually work on a good schedule to get rid of my benzo's (zolpidem and oxazepam). 

[invalidusername]

Would you suggest for me to hold of the Diazepam for the next 4 days?

 

No - still take as needed. They will not mess with the process. Just try to use sparingly.

 

Did you get suicidal thoughts when increasing the dosage? Feeling of completely losing control?

 

Absolutely. I have specific time etched on my memory. Simply breathing in and out became too much. I was exactly where you are, poised with the phone to call 111 (in the UK). There have been times when I admitted myself to the hospital to stay safe at some points. These drugs are not to be taken lightly.

 

Also, zolpidem is actually a nonbenzodiazepine - although similar in the effects of a benzodiazepine, the chemical compounds are very different. Generally we refer to them as z-drugs - the "z" denoting a "zzzz" phonetic sleeping metaphor.

[RoaldDahl]

Thanks again mate, guess we can virtually high-five each other (god we are/have been going through freaking hell). 

 

The one thing that really works for me in the cases of acute thoughts of suicide/dying is Zolpidem, it's like the Oxazepam is barely doing anything. It relaxes me for the next 4/5 hours and makes me feel great and alive. Weird but true.  On Zolpidem I get through it, can rationalize the situation and think more clearly. 

 

Starting tomorrow I will then drop the Oxazepam and Zolpidem. Do you recommend working with the 4/6 weeks schedule to come of it? Or take as you need? (Might be hard as it's super addictive I've read). 

 

Once again, thank you both so much for the advice and support. You guys are heroes. 

[fishinghat]

OK, let me catch up here.
 
Yes, diazepam is a good choice.
 
If you get the clonidine you can not stop the oxazepam immediately. It simply lessens the withdrawal.
 
The source of your symptoms is the change from Cymbalta to Citalopram which does not control norepinephrine (similar to adrenaline). It is also made worse by your sudden decrease in oxazepam.

Clonidine takes effect in 1 hour and will not eliminate the anxiety but will reduce it significantly.

The normal weaning process for diazepam is around 6 months but work with the dr. Maybe you will be lucky. The fatigue you are experiencing is called benzo fatigue and is common with benzo withdrawal.

IUN has given you excellent information to work with.

Medical research says that you should never discontinue use of a benzo and a z-drug at the same time as the withdrawal can be horrible but having said that you will have diazepam to lean on during this time. Like IUN said, use the diazepam as necessary as you switch over.

[RoaldDahl]

Ok. 

 

Tomorrow I am starting with the Diazepam. 5x 4mg per day (2x2mg tablets). The cure will last six weeks. Starting with a high dose and lowering each week. 

 

P.S IUN, has Citalopram been easier to get of for you than Cymbalta?

[invalidusername]

You will never get better information anywhere else on the Internet than from our very own Hat on benzos...

 

I would say that Cymbalta was very tough... and I have cold turkey'ed Citalopram. I would say that a CT from 10mg of Cymbalta was about the same as CT Citalopram. 

[fishinghat]

Roald, I hope I didn't come across as egotistical it just upsets me to see drs who don't know what they are talking about. Nearly all mental health clinics in my area do NOT prescribe benzos any more because they are so addictive and have a long serious withdrawal. If some one comes in addicted to benzos (from street usage, very popular) they immediately start a slow taper and clonidine and/or hydroxyzine. If you look in the ebook you will find medical journal articles on this. I don't know if the drs don't keep up with this stuff or just give out meds like candy and think 'well I will deal with side effects or withdrawal later'.

 

Anyway, sorry to come across dictatorial. Hang in there.

[RoaldDahl]

Roald, I hope I didn't come across as egotistical it just upsets me to see drs who don't know what they are talking about. Nearly all mental health clinics in my area do NOT prescribe benzos any more because they are so addictive and have a long serious withdrawal. If some one comes in addicted to benzos (from street usage, very popular) they immediately start a slow taper and clonidine and/or hydroxyzine. If you look in the ebook you will find medical journal articles on this. I don't know if the drs don't keep up with this stuff or just give out meds like candy and think 'well I will deal with side effects or withdrawal later'.

 

Anyway, sorry to come across dictatorial. Hang in there.

 

He mate, you can be as blunt as you want, much appreciated

 

What would you do in this case? I am using 15mg Oxazepam the last 3 days now and 20mg of Zolpidem (one during the day when I get serious panick attacks where I become so anxious and suicidal). 

I have a log of how much Oxazepam I used everyday, Keep in mind that I use 1 or 2 10MG Zolpidems per day. 

 

6-5     30 MG Oxazepam 

7-5     30 MG Oxa

8-5     30 mg
9-5     25MG
10-5   15MG and one Zolpidem during the day
11-5    25 mg
12-5   30 mg
13-5   30 mg 
14-5   15 mg
15-5   15mg
16-5   25mg
17-5   20mg
18-5   30mg 
19-5  15mg
20-5   15mg
21-5   10mg 
22-5    10 mg
23-5    10mg 
24-5    10 mg 
25-5    7.5 mg
26-5   7 mg
27-5   10mg 
28-5   17mg
29-5   10mg 
30-5    30mg after severe anxiety upping the dosage of Citalopram
31-5   15mg and took 1 zolpidem during daytime

I have no clue anymore if I should take the Diazepam or not. Seems like I am starting a new problem. I just don't know anymore mate. Should I hammer on the Clonidine instead? I am reading a lot of side-effects on it as well. 
The ONLY reason I can think of to use Diazepam is because of the long half-life. Currently I am struggling and really in survival mode. 

 

My brother suggests taking Atenolol instead. Should I just push through and lower my Oxa and Zolpidem per day? 

The Diazepam will get me of the Zolpidem easier which is highly needed IMO. What do you think? This far Zolpidem has been the only one getting me through the mayor attacks..