335 replies to this topic

[RoaldDahl]

Hang in there. You're doing great. Losing control of your brain and body like this is truamatic and shakes your perception of what is normal and safe. It really is the case that you need to slowly rebuild your confidence as well as tolerance for day to day life. It doesn't happen all at once and you shouldn't expect it to. I remember having tremendous anxiety if my husband so much as went to the grocery store for an hour or two. I could barely leave the house. I also doubt that your fear and anxiety today is EXCLUSIVELY related to the thing you're actually anxious and fearful about. My best guess is that for now all negative emotions will feel amplified, that's how it happened for me. I could only think about the negative and scary things and focus on them obsessively, like constantly thinking about how my life was over and I would never be able to go out with friends to a restaurant much less go visit my family or go on a fun vacation. Except that it was the middle of the pandemic and nobody was inviting me to do any of those things. I would watch TV and see people going out and it would make my heart pound. Thankfully most of that is behind me and I think it'll still get better as life returns to some idea of normal. For the record even though I thought about it MANY times I never went on any other SNRI or SSRI, but I also never took Cymbalta for anxiety in the first place which made the withdrawal even more infuriating. The only thing I take now is a bit of Seroquel for the insomnia I developed (working on getting off that now) and L-theanine supplements which actually helped me a lot. 

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks frog, this helped a lot. Hope you're doing well!

[invalidusername]

A truthful and honest, down to earth post. I admire that RD.

 

I was the same as you - bricking it about being alone. I enjoy things that involve the delights of solitude like playing my piano, doing some art... but as soon as you are alone, you can't even think about that stuff. 

 

The

silence

is

deafening.

 

But this really is par for the course. Like my lovely green friend said, she didn't even sign up for anxiety but the poor lass got it anyway! My ticket out of this was a combination of gradual exposure technique and meditation. I am sorry that you have been thrown in at the deep end in being alone - so come on here as often as you feel you need. There is always someone here to write to!!

 

Take care my friend.

[fishinghat]

It is amazing how we all are so different. Being alone is golden for me. The silence and lack of personal contact is bliss. Just not a social personality. That is why many therapists recommend starting a journal about the things you do and how it effects you. It is essential to get to know yourself.

[RoaldDahl]

I used to be so comfortable being alone. I could play piano just like you IUN, play some games, read some. Since last year it has changed so much. My gf had to leave for 2 weeks for business. I am alone since Friday. She has been my support in all this with my dad. I literally became sick from the anxiety/stress of being alone. My body is shivering and I have a giant headache and even less energy available than I would normally have. Yesterday I went to the supermarket and I had a small panicattack inside, I HAVEN'T HAD ONE IN AGES. 

How is this all possible??

 

Is the N-part of the SNRI Cymbalta which my SSRI doesnt have non stop driving me to the edge? Is my adrenaline/noradrenaline still not under control?

[fishinghat]

In general those nerve endings/brain takes a couple of years to stabilize. In addition, you are now forced into a situation where it is necessary to push your limits by being more socially active. Your neurotransmitter control is now challenged by the additional stress. If you continue to be more socially active in small increments your body will adapt. I went from Cymbalta to an SSRI, Zoloft. It took me months after my withdrawal was "under control" to get used to being out in the public even in a limited on and off fashion. You will get there. 

[RoaldDahl]

I used to be so comfortable being alone. I could play piano just like you IUN, play some games, read some. Since last year it has changed so much. My gf had to leave for 2 weeks for business. I am alone since Friday. She has been my support in all this with my dad. I literally became sick from the anxiety/stress of being alone. My body is shivering and I have a giant headache and even less energy available than I would normally have. Yesterday I went to the supermarket and I had a small panicattack inside, I HAVEN'T HAD ONE IN AGES. 

How is this all possible??

 

Is the N-part of the SNRI Cymbalta which my SSRI doesnt have non stop driving me to the edge? Is my adrenaline/noradrenaline still not under control?

 

Right, I get what you're saying fishing but I cannot imagine that every person who makes the moves I made is in such a terrible shape? I cannot function. I don't think every person would be jobless who makes this transition? I can barely function most days, have no energy and I got the feeling that my entire body is recked. 

[fishinghat]

No, most don't have as much debilitating effects but having said that I would say that of the members that I remember that were still working when they started withdrawal around 10% (+/-?) wound up becoming unempolyed that they mentioned. Some took 2, 3, 4 years to return to full employment. A great many had to take multiple leave of absences to help get through things. It can be very overwhelming and take a long time to recover.

[RoaldDahl]

Would Welbutrin help to get my noradrenaline etc under control? Citalopram is doing absolutely nothing. I will start tapering the Citalopram this week because it can't get any worse. 

[fishinghat]

Roald, beleive it or not it can get worse (but may not). Just like Cymbalta, do a slow controlled taper. IUN has Citalopram experience and may be able to help you further in that effort. 

 

Yes wellbutrin may help but whether it is an ssri or snri etc it is a flip of the coin. They tried 5 different antidepressants on me before they found one that helped. Many members have had to try several to find a winner. The catch is that the more you change antidepressants the more likely the next one will not work. You just never know.

[invalidusername]

Hey RD,

 

Apologies for the delay coming back with my input. The UK has just lifted some restrictions and it has been really difficult to organise work.

 

As Hat said, I know my way around Citalopram having been on and off for some 14-15 years. Granted a lot of these things are subjective, but I cannot even get as far as a 15% drop without some horrible effects coming my way. The issue you have with citalopram is that the 10mg are not scored, so this is the lowest denomination you can rely on for a stepped withdrawal. Due to the half-life, it is possible to move the dose time to something a little further apart, but I really do not have so much confidence in changing the time of when I take the doses.

 

Your panic in the supermarket was well-founded. Your brain is making short cuts to assumptions and bypassing the rational part of the brain altogether at the moment. It is putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. It is not functioning right. This is a symptom. It is not you. Try to view this as such and don't put yourself under any undue stress. You don't blame yourself for the sore throat or the snots when you have a cold? The same applies. It is a symptom and it will pass.

 

Again, I would probably find myself in the same boat. If my wife was not in the situation she is with her own mental health, she would be travelling back to her home country and visiting her mother for a month. I don't mind telling you - that scares the crap out of me. A few days might not be a problem, but approaching a week - that would be difficult. 

 

We are social beings and it is habit that you have come from. You put in a change like that and there will be consequences. Bottom line...

 

you cannot change what is happening, but you CAN change your reaction to them. 

 

This is the sort of thinking that Frog usually comes out with, and she is very wise in this respect. 

 

Keep in touch - write as much as you want/need to feel there are others with you. But I would give yourself some relief by calling friends up, bit of social media (if that is your thing), just for some remote company, BUT also take the opportunity to get on top of it. Breathe, meditate, read... embrace some solitary pastimes so you know you can cope should it come around again.

 

We're always here for you my friend

 

IUN

[RoaldDahl]

Hello friends!

 

It's been a while so it's time for an update I hope you're all doing well. 

 

My update: 

 

Let's start with the positives. Its been 11 months since I've been of the benzo's now and 14 months since I've been of Cymbalta. 

The brainterror and probably mental akathisia which I suffered from has given up. I suffer less from racing thoughts and my suicide ideation has left me. Hooray I guess. 

I can play and watch movies again which is a big win for me, always reading books goes okayish. 

My vision is improving ( I can see again with my left eye) but it sometimes is still extremely blurry (depends on how tired I am). 

I can laugh a bit more. 

 

The bad: 

 

I have no quality of life. I still cannot go far from my home due to fear of panicattacks. I think the severe panicattacks switching from Cymbalta to Celexa have left their scars (maybe ptsd? no clue). 

I suffer from visual snow. 

I suffer from tinitus 24x7

I still am extremly tired

I still feel sick a lot of days

I still have body spasms. 

All in all I guess I see improvements. The pure mind terror has left me thank god. 

 

I do however have no quality of life. I cannot travel and this is required for most jobs in my expertice. I got a job offer starting 1st of August but I dont even think I can sit in an office anymore. 

 

The direct switch from Cymbalta to Celexa has ruined my life. I dont think the Celexa is doing anything for me. 

 

I am seriously considering going back on Cymbalta. I just want to live my life again. 

 

I am a shell of my former self. 

 

I will keep on fighting however. I am in CGT therapy weekly but as my fear is mainly chemical I dont have the feeling it does a lot for me. I play sports whenever I can and have the energy to. 

[fishinghat]

Good to hear from you RD. I am so glad the fear part is over. That is soooo bad.

 

As far as your list of "The Bad"...

 

The tinnitus is usually the last thing to fade away.

The visual snow and body spasms would be next.

The fatigue and feeling sick should slowly fade over the next year and as it does you will find more energy and less and less concern about going out in public. It is definitely a long-term project but you are getting there.

 

Hang in there, you are not alone.

[frog]

Hi Roald, 

You're doing great and should be really proud of yourself for making it through everything you have so far even if you're not yet where you'd like to be. 

 

I can really relate about the panic attacks. The onslaught of panic attacks I suffered from during the acute part of my Cymbalta withdrawal also left a big scar on me and resulted in agoraphobia. The thought of leaving my house jumpstarts my anxiety as I fear experiencing panic attacks in public (which ironically makes me anxious and panicked in public! love it). Though I do leave my house for necessary and fun things alike, it takes a tremendous amount of effort and is often accompanied by A LOT of anxiety making it much less enjoyable and fun. I can really sympathize about feeling the lack of quality of life. It's a vicious cycle though really because I think if I stopped worrying about panic attacks then I wouldn't get them in the first place. It's a simple solution but not easy. I started trying to do CBT but was not really vibing with the therapist and also feel like my anxiety is so bad it's hard to practice what I'm learning. The anxiety is just too much and the CBT not quite enough. As a result I've made the decision to work with a new psychiatrist and likely go on an SSRI. Hoping that the boost of serotonin helps to reduce the cortisol and adrenaline that has wired me up for the last nearly 2 years and help brings things back to balance so I can continue working with my therapist to confront my fears and anxieties from a rational and empathetic place instead of a place of fear and doom. 

 

Based on your experience with Cymbalta, I would say that was a bad medication for you and likely not worth going back on. But there are many different SSRIs and other medications as well that could be a good fit, they also have less severe withdrawals than Cymbalta. There's no shame in taking medication to get over the hump especially if you're already trying everything else and it's not working. You deserve to have a quality of life back and be able to work as I'm also sure not having those things causes anxiety too. The only thing I would urge you to do if you haven't already is find the right psychiatrist. Someone who's not a pill pusher, and someone who is aware of the damage these withdrawals can cause and will be sensitive about them and would never judge you for being afraid, or wanting to go slow and needing lots and lots of support and reassurance. 

 

In the meantime, as you start your new job, do you have any rescue medications to lean on especially in the first week? New jobs are stressful and anxiety inducing even under the best circumstances. Even something simple like a beta blocker could help reduce the feelings of anxiety and panic and help you cope and build your confidence. There are no major side effects at low doses and you can pretty much take them as needed. I went on a vacation a week ago and had nightmarish anxiety leading up to and during it and propranolol really helped get me through it. 

[RoaldDahl]

Thanks Frog and Fishing for the replies. 

 

I will try the propanolol Frog, I got some at home but have been to scared to take it. 

 

Currently I am really feeling sickish again. It doesnt seem to give up. My mental capacity / brainfog is horrible. I should have never ever gotten on these drugs in the first place. I hope that with time I will recover and my mind get's some rest. I'm starting to become clearly depressed about the entire situation especially as I am suffering for already 1,5 years. 

 

I am really thinking about tapering the citalopram down as well. I just want of this horrible ride. I am too scared to try a new ssri to be honest. Only thing I might try is Welbutrin..

[fishinghat]

RD, I wouldn't complicate the issue by doing another withdrawal at this time. That could just make things worse. It is up to you though. Surely you will see some improvement soon (he says with fingers crossed, lol).

[frog]

I can definitely understand the fear of taking an SSRI It feels like a huge risk after everything we've been through. There's no shame in taking them and there's no shame in not taking them either. Do whatever feels right to you. 

 

For the propranolol I was nervous to take it too after not taking it for a year. I'm very jumpy now when it comes to taking any new medications and I get very hypervigilant about any changes or side effects. I took one pill at a time only in the mornings and had no side effects, just relief from all the panic symptoms. One day I took a second pill in the afternoon so I could go out to dinner and again no issues. Would recommend to try it out on a day where you don't have to be anywhere just to be safe but I think you'll be just fine

[invalidusername]

Hey RD....

 

Apologies for the late reply. Frog has done her usual bang up job of using her own circumstances to demonstrate these things. 

 

My immediate response is that one has to be aware that drugs are NOT always the answer. You have got a lot of effects induced by the drugs rather than circumstances. The drugs are now making those circumstances worse. The bottom line is that prior to you going on any drug, your neurological chemicals were out of balance. HOW they were out of balance, we do not know. But it is the imbalance that causes the symptoms. An SSRI can throw the balance off the wrong way, as can an SNRI. They don't work for everyone simply because they are NOT the cure.

 

I say this purely for informative purposes, but doctors have got it into their head that these drugs are the "go-to" solution. The reality is that we are now pulling away from these drugs. Research has shown that the "band-aid" approach to dealing with anxiety and depression is a long, drawn-out and costly (financially, emotionally, physically) procedure. 

 

I have been following the latest developments which are using seemingly "dodgy" substances, but the reality is that they reset the brain in a very short period - something that can be done over time with adequate CBT and other such therapy. The future is NOT anti-depressants. 

 

The issue you have is that you are facing symptoms that are being bought about by the drugs, so you could be trying to re-train your brain (which balances these neurochemicals out), but the meds are not allowing you to do this. It is like trying to diet whilst you are force-fed a massively saturated-fat snack one a day! At worst, it can be futile. I don't want to put you off, but we need to find out exactly what is going on and which chemicals are out of whack here. You might be right in that a dopa-antagonist might be the way to go.

 

Can you recall when the current symptoms you have started - have they got worse over time, improved, or stayed the same?

 

As Hat said, there can be significant delays which is why jumping around from one to another isn't always a good idea. I hope I can offer a lot of insight as I have trodden the path you are on with Cymbalta and Citalopram (Celexa). Please feel free to quiz me as much as you like, and let's get you to a better place. 

 

God Bless

 

IUN

[RoaldDahl]

Hello lovely guys and Frog

 

How is everybody doing?

 

An update from my side (while I did a lot of thinking about your last post IUN and Frog). I started my job in the beginning of August and lost it/called in sick on the first day. I went into the office, had some meetings and they had my agenda fully booked for the oncoming next 2 months including trips to other countries. I got a panicattack, felt overwhelmed and had to report in sick. I will loose this job after this month and be on welfare. Yay. 

 

I feel like a complete failure. I also did a lot of thinking. The only problem I had while on Cymbalta was my low libido, low amount of energy and sometimes a small panic attack. 

 

I have been through a lost of more than 40 symptoms when I got switched from Cymbalta to Citalopram and tapered the benzo's. It is hard for me to know if the benzo or cymbalta is the guilty one for each symptom but it is clear that it is produced by these medicine as I used to be healthy before the switch to Celexa. 

 

I am in a weekly CGT training, it doesnt do too much for me. I keep pushing myself and exposing myself to the outer world but I keep on getting anxiety attacks and am really close to giving up. This sounds dramatic and it might be but I have fought like a lion for the past 1.5 year without getting much quality of life back. Yes, I had some good windows in which I could do more but the anxiety is non stop there. I am suffering each day even when I have a ''window''. I don't see a way to recovery anytime soon and even worse, I have the feeling that Citalopram is doing absolutely NOTHING for my fear but makes me sicker and sicker. Ever since the switch I got so ill. You would say a SSRI should do something right? It feels like a placebo. 

 

I have decided to enjoy the welfare for the next five months, do absolutely NOTHING but walking and some light sports and try to heal my brain more. If after the five months I am still so anxious I will need to do something radical. Maybe a switch to Efexor our something because this SSRI is doing nothing for me. 

 

I wish I had never touched Cymbalta. My life is absolutely ruined and I feel like I am disappointing my fiancee daily and that it would be only fair to cut her loose. 

[invalidusername]

Hey RD,

 

Apologies - I seemed to have missed your last reply. Great to hear from you.

 

I am really sorry about your job - but in all fairness, it sounds like a real high profile number; something which would have me concerned in places. 

 

The low libido is more likely the Cymbalta, but something as simply as Damiana tea would give hope there. It is amazing what a cup each evening did for me. The occasional panic attack I would put down to circumstantial. Almost everyone suffers the occasional attack. There is often a problem when people are looking for 100% in these situations - no anxiety, no panic attacks, no depression. Life is simply no going to let that happen. A recent survey across the US showed that, on average, men felt depressed 3-4 days a month (2 for women). So this is what I told myself. It is OK to have an off day once a week. Anything less is a bonus!

 

The celexa clearly isn't working. This has to go. I would go further that just the placebo, it would well be making you WORSE. These drugs can do that. I would strongly suggest that you start a taper and get the neurological status quo back. 

 

During these 5 months that would be possible and it would put you in a good position if you needed to start another med. 

 

Are you taking any supplements at the moment? 

 

Lets get you sorted.... I hate seeing you like this my friend.

 

IUN

[RoaldDahl]

Hi IUN,

 

Thanks for the reply mate. I am really at a crossroad. Since I got bridged to Citalopram (worst mistake of my life, I should have gone back to Cymbalta on day five of the switch) I haven't been the same. Myself and a professional came to the conclusion I am suffering from Akathisia non stop. 

 

Everytime I take the Citalopram (7PM) I start becoming worse at 9PM and it seems to leave at 11PM. I am fighting everyday. I just don't know how much longer I got it in me. A casual panicattack I can handle but my body is non stop agitated, I often feel the urge to flee even when nothing is happening, I get chemical shockwaves in my brain and body and my muscle spasms are still there. 

 

I am so far from being normal right now that it's ridiculous. I had 3 problems under Cymbalta, after the switch I have experienced more than 50. 

 

I tried to drop from 22mg to 20mg of Citalopram but my entire body shut down. I couldnt walk anymore because of the pain (mind you, im a strong big guy) and I upped my dosage to 22mg again. I don't know if I can survive this entire taper because it will be so long. Meanwhile I am going through hell 24x7. 

I've tried to suck it up a lot but I am really close to going heavy on benzo's again and switching back to Cymbalta. The suffering is unreal and this poison should be banned. 

 

I will stabilize now and see if I improve in the next 2 weeks. I guess my entire CNS is messed up as this drop totally ruined me and my brain. I cannot think clearly anymore and my coordination is off again. 

 

I hate this. 

[frog]

Hi RD,

Sorry I totally missed your previous reply. Please don't feel like a failure. It is not at all your fault what happened to you and it's just an unfortunate coincidence that your job is very demanding in ways that you can't deal with right now. 

 

My withdrawal from Cymbalta was very severe triggering constant panic attacks, terrible gut issues, insomnia, etc. This put my brain and body under tremendous prolonged stress and I think unfortunately prolonged stress can lead to a cascade of problems and I do believe it can trigger some kind of disruption to the CNS. After nearly 2 years of this I finally had enough and went on Lexapro about a month ago. It's been tremendously helpful to me and has pretty much set things back to normal. I wish I knew why so I could understand why the heck this was happening in the first place. I guess some kind of chemical imbalance. 

 

If you're not getting that level of relief from your SSRI then I don't think there's any reason for you to be on it. I would not recommend going on Effexor though. It has an even shorter half life than Cymbalta and can be that much harder to come off of plus more side effects. My doc says she doesn't even prescribe Effexor to people because of that. Given what's going on with you, you probably should bridge to another medication while still on Celexa instead of trying to reduce it without support, but I think that's something you should talk through with your doctor

[fishinghat]

RD, did your psychiatrist mentionb maybe switching from  Citalopram to maybe lexapro or zoloft or some other ssri?

[RoaldDahl]

Thanks for the advice Frog and I am so glad that after all the suffering you are getting better!

 

Fishing, I feel like I am stuck. I am superscared to switch as the last time from Cymbalta to Celexa it almost killed me and caused heavy trauma. I am speaking with my psychiatrist on Friday. 

What would you recommend?

 

It might be that I am also in 12-months wave from being of the benzo's but it currently is unbearable. i am exploding out of my skin. Adrenaline pumping and weird anxiety surges like being in acute withdrawal. I cant do this anymore, I need relief. 

 

Going back on Cymbalta seems the most reliable to me as I am familiar with the drug. I would need a multiple year taper on it but at least I could function. 

[invalidusername]

Hey RD...

 

The 9pm hit of the citalopram sounds about right, although by 11pm it should have peaked, but this is more than likely offset by the production of melatonin which would dilute the effect. If you took it during the day, you would find it lasting longer, so probably best that you stick to evening dosing.

 

I have the similar problem with dropping the dose. Although I tried 5mg as it was the closest I could get to - am on 30mg, so went to 25mg. Worst depression ever. I couldn't take it at all. Can I ask how you are facilitating the 22mg to 20mg drop?

 

I am also a big chap, but fortunately experience and research tells us that body mass doesn't have an effect on the dose of psych drugs as it targets the brain. I really do think you need to get on the switch. Your best bet is a cross-taper so as to not completely tip you over the edge.

 

IUN

[fishinghat]

Actually RD my first suggestion would be Clonidine as it is very effective at controlling adrenaline, second choice Propanolol and then third a cross taper to lexapro or zoloft.

[RoaldDahl]

Hi guys,

 

I can only express as what I went through last night as a form of serotonine symdrom. I was all cramped up, totally confused and anxious and my body was incredibly hot. 

 

I have tried propanolol fishing and it made me feel more than awful unfortunately. 

 

I will discuss a cross taper because I cannot hold on anymore. It will be the only option left for me I guess. Would a change from Citalopram to Lexapro actually work out? 

 

For tapering I am using the liquid solution Fishing. If you ever need some let me know as the doctor gave me way too many bottles by mistake. They are 2mg drops. 

[fishinghat]

"Would a change from Citalopram to Lexapro actually work out?"

 

Flip a coin. Members do not have a good record when changing antidepressants. One works and another doesn't but unluckily you have few choices at this time. 

[invalidusername]

There was talk about moving from Citalopram to Lexapro (the off patent name being Escitalopram). Some consider Escitalopram to be Citalopram 2.0, but as you have said Hat, these can be completely different from one to the other, despite the close similarity in molecular make-up. 

 

From personal experience, I switched from Citalopram to Escitalopram/Lexparo, as Hat, you will remember. Made me very ill. So was of no benefit to me at all. So in RD's situation, it could still go either way in my opinion - despite Citalopram being the nasty option that it has been for our friend here.

[RoaldDahl]

Hi guys,

 

It's been a while huh! 

 

I thought it would be time for an update. I realized I was going through severe akathisia the entire time while coming of the benzo's and Cymbalta. Nobody had ever explained this to me. I switched to Lexapro on January 2022 and it stopped the insane terror of akathisia that I went through daily. 

By March 2022 I still was incredibly ill daily with severe withdrawal. My fiance broke up with me and told me to pack my shit and leave the house I originally bought. She told me she had caregiver fatigue and couldnt do it anymore. As I lost my job I was in no position to take over the mortage and I was basically homeless. 

Still incredibly sick daily I moved to my dads house for 3 weeks and after that I got a small cabin in the forest. 

There I was....No job, my relationship of 10 years over and the love of my life dropped me. It has been insanely hard on me and I suffer from PTSD from the severe akathisia and trauma this entire ordeal put me through. 

I started tapering the Lexapro when the akathisia feeling was over. This July I was done with my taper of Lexapro. The first 8 weeks I couldnt walk with at least 10 other serious symptoms. I am now in week 14 and doing a bit better.

 

I feel like a former shell of myself. I still cannot work. This has taken everything from me and truth be told I dont know if i will make it out alive. I will at least give it my all and try. 

 

I wanted tot thank you guys for all the support you have given me back in 2020 and 2021. 

 

If you would like it I will update you guys how it's going. 

 

Regards,

 

Roald. 

[fishinghat]

Thanks for the update Roald. I have to say you are one tough dude. What a story!!!  Hang in there and please keep us posted as this is how we learn and can give us the tools to help others. How long did it take you to taper off the Lexapro once you started?