1191 replies to this topic

[invalidusername]

I have seen research that indicates that it takes up to 2 years to lose your tolerance to benzos and get to where they work again at the same dose. Also, I know many pdocs and medical researchers say that after coming off a benzo wait two years to try going back on one. Tolerance is a enduring thing with benzos.
 

 

But surely that assumes that one has taken it as a prescription on a daily basis? I have only ever taken diazepam on an as-and-when basis. The most consecutive days would not have exceeded 3 I would imagine - and only one dose for each of those days. Still, I am doing my best to cut them out as much as possible so I shouldn't be concerned, but is just nice to know that they would still be effective in an emergency situation.

[Mxpro32]

I had to deal with a difficult angry customer this morning and I thought my heart was going to explode it was beating so hard. I could barely breathe when he was talking to me like that. It's always stressful if that happens, but not like that.

[frog]

You, like me, I still think are just dealing with rebound anxiety. Everything is super amplified. I wish I knew better what was going on in my brain but that's just how I am. I feel more at peace rationalizing. I do believe my NP that it will all settle down little by little as time drags on. But he told me it would take a month or so and with every day that passes that's more of the same, it just seems more impossible that I'll be feeling better in that short of a time. I also didn't sleep well again last night and woke up at 3:30am with lots of anxiety so I'm having a very pessimistic day. 

[fishinghat]

I would say you are probably right IUN. Slow but steady wins the race.

[fishinghat]

I had to deal with a difficult angry customer this morning and I thought my heart was going to explode it was beating so hard. I could barely breathe when he was talking to me like that. It's always stressful if that happens, but not like that.

How many times have I experienced that when I was having anxiety issues. Sooooo many. Sucks but it will disappear.

[Mxpro32]

So after the withdrawal, your anxiety has gone away or just got less severe?

[fishinghat]

I had a nervous breakdown in 2002. After trying 5 ssri/snri, 3 benzos and Seroquel, Z drugs and 2 beta blockers I was not any better. Finally got it under control with Lexapro and clonidine and hydroxyzine.
It took 3 years to get relief. eventually my dr wanted to change me to a new medicine that was safer than Lexapro (That is right-Cymbalta). After that I had several body systems compromised by the Cymbalta leading to the horrible withdrawal. Several supplements, 4 antidepressants and 4 other drugs later no relief (9 months total) until I was put on Zoloft. In the 6 years since my Cymbalta withdrawal I have weaned of all those meds they tried except one and am now approaching the end on that one. Once recovered I will start to wean off the Zoloft. Don't you just love medicine?

[Mxpro32]

And the cymbalta was the worst through all of that?

[invalidusername]

LOL - you asked for that one MX!!

 

I will never know how Hat has gone through what he has and emerged the other side. Prayer and perseverance. I thank the good Lord that he is with us, as his calling has sure shown itself in helping others through similar times of distress. Bless you brother Hat.

 

The removal of anxiety during withdrawal can be subjective to a degree, but one thing is for sure, it is very difficult to notice it getting better when it is so slow. This is why I always recommend a diary as every day can seem the same and you only end up feeling more disheartened by the fact that days seemingly never seem to be getting better when they are - just VERY slowly.

 

I too have been there with the pounding, irate a$$hole... if only they knew quite what they were causing....

[frog]

 

 

The removal of anxiety during withdrawal can be subjective to a degree, but one thing is for sure, it is very difficult to notice it getting better when it is so slow. This is why I always recommend a diary as every day can seem the same and you only end up feeling more disheartened by the fact that days seemingly never seem to be getting better when they are - just VERY slowly.

 

 

This has been the hardest part for me. Not seeing any progress. Or feeling like any progress I AM seeing is only because I started taking some kind of medicine so I'm just covering up the problem and putting a bandaid on it and when I eventually take the bandaid off, it'll all still be riiiiight there. I hope that's not what's happening. My husband helps me to try to keep perspective on things because he sees me now and he saw me at my worst almost 6 weeks ago. I still have a hard time believing him though. 

[Mxpro32]

As hard as it is now, and as uncomfortable as the anxiety is, I have to acknowledge the progress. I was pretty damn sure I was going to have a nervous breakdown and cease functioning. I was an emotional heap swinging from crushing depression to anxiety and agitation so bad it scared me because I felt like I might do anything to escape it. My mind was racing and I couldn't shut it up. I was talking really fast and incessantly to anyone who would listen, trying to think my way out. The worst part was the depersonalization. I really felt like I had lost myself. Like I had no idea who I was and I couldn't trust my thoughts or emotions and there was nothing left. I felt like there was no way I had a future because I couldn't keep going like that. But here I am. I'm damn uncomfortable, but it's me again inside feeling uncomfortable. I'm able to function, and I have some pretty good days where I really feel like me, humor and all. The next milestone I'm looking forward to is not waking up 2-3 times a night.

[gail]

Mxpro,

What you're experimenting is normal in withdrawal. Even some have shown up to ER for that.

It was mentioned to buy a note book to write all of your good moments, smàll or big. Don't expect too much as you are two weeks in,month 3-4 will be better.

So sorry for what you are going through. A bit of progress, then don't forget that progress is not linear, never.

Always here for you, love!

[fishinghat]

And the cymbalta was the worst through all of that?

Yes!!

[Mxpro32]

Mxpro,

What you're experimenting is normal in withdrawal. Even some have shown up to ER for that.

It was mentioned to buy a note book to write all of your good moments, smàll or big. Don't expect too much as you are two weeks in,month 3-4 will be better.

So sorry for what you are going through. A bit of progress, then don't forget that progress is not linear, never.

Always here for you, love!

Thanks. I'm actually 2 1/2 months completely off. I just want to sleep so bad. I woke at 3 and 6 last night. I'm exhausted.

[frog]

Don't have much advice as far as sleep. The Seroquel 50mg I just started taking is definitely giving me more sleep than I was having, but that's not hard to do since I was sleeping roughly 2-3 hours a night. I'm still waking up at least once in the night and then again at some early morning time like 5:30am which would be great if I had to wake up that early but I don't have to be up for work until 7:30...

 

I did want to tell you that the Propranolol beta blocker has been working REALLY well for me. I had little to no anxiety at all yesterday. All day. I still don't feel like totally myself and totally comfortable but I can see that more clearly now than when I was filled with uncontrollable physical fear and dread all day long. I'm actually feeling well enough that if this continues I feel pretty comfortable with flying across the country for Christmas which is a giant turnaround from a week ago. From what I understand the beta blockers are the lesser of all the evils you could potentially take to mitigate the rebound anxiety because they don't really affect your brain in any way, so on the offchance they have an effect on you maybe worth a try for you too? 

[Mxpro32]

I went to my regular Dr. To see what he thinks about my situation, and mostly to see if he could help my sleep. He verified that cymbalta withdrawals can be really tough. He made a face like he couldn't believe my psychiatrist said there's no chance my brain is still adjusting. He said "the brain is very complicated". I asked about clonidine and the other meds fishinghat recommended, but he said my blood pressure and heart rate are too low to take them. He prescribed trazadone for sleep, which is my main concern now. Thoughts?

[invalidusername]

MX - have just sent you a PM with some information regarding sleep. There is also a very good write up in the eBook which Hat did some time ago, I don't knowing if this has been mentioned before, but well worth a look. All habit related, but every little thing helps.

 

Frog - I am SO glad the prop worked - and glad I said to try that first! As Hat and myself said, this is more about controlling the symptoms, so we can now see that it is the symptoms that are causing the psychological issues. This is normally the case, so please stick with this and don't introduce anything else just yet!!

[fishinghat]

Mxpro

"I asked about clonidine and the other meds fishinghat recommended, but he said my blood pressure and heart rate are too low to take them. He prescribed trazadone for sleep, which is my main concern now. Thoughts?"

Low blood pressure would be a limiting factor for clonidine but also it would be counter-indicated for benzos, hydroxyzine, a beta blocker or any other anxiety ,ed. You can not control anxiety without lowering blood pressure. Even Cymbalta and other antidepressants lower bp in most cases. If you take a med to reduce the stimulant neurotransmitters serotonin or adrenaline you will lower bp. Interesting comment from the dr.

What is your normal bp Mxpro?

[Mxpro32]

I don't remember exactly. Something over 79

[Mxpro32]

I've noticed my mood is very sensitive to my thoughts.  I know through cbt that your thoughts control your mood, but I think typically that is a slower process. lately, a pretty good mood can go south quick with a negative thought.  or anxiety can get way worse with an anxious thought.  conversely, it seems my mood can go back up quicker too if I block out the negative thoughts.  it keeps me on edge.  I feel like my thoughts require constant vigilance.  even the act of paying attention to how I feel can turn my mood down.  if I'm able to not pay attention to my mood, I start feeling better.  my moods seem way more volatile than before.  not sure if that is due to the numbing effect of Cymbalta and the other antidepressants I've been on for years, or if I'm truly more sensitive to my thoughts.  I'm hoping sleep will eventually help this process. 

[Mxpro32]

Man, I am getting really tired of not sleeping. I’m still waking up 1-2 times per night and have to take a Xanax to get back to sleep. My heart is still pounding a lot of the time. I had a few days straight where I felt the most calm and stillness and peace I have felt in a long time, but the anxiety has been back pretty strong again. I’m functioning pretty well, but this lack of sleep is killing me.

[gail]

Mxpro,

You are right about fixing your thoughts, it spiralled down. I'm in the process of experimenting this. What a relief of thinking of other things, pleasant things than us, us and us.


Been turning and turning in my bed all night long with fear. Now my mind is on pleasant thing. Needs energy to do this. But you need to do this.

Don't forget that process is not linear, like the sea, wax and same. Acceptance plays a role in this. Acceptance is a tough thing. Love.

[invalidusername]

Gail is right there with the acceptance. It is the biggest one to learn, but the most important. Listen to anyone who has recovered and they will tell you that it is all about acceptance. The problem is, there is no way of "learning" acceptance. It is something that only you can instil within yourself. It often comes and goes which makes it that much more difficult. 

 

Glad to hear that you have had some better days - just keep the focus on this. Get a glass half full attitude rather than glass half empty. It sounds like things are on the mend, it is just a matter of time... and of course, patience!

 

Sorry Hat - stole your tagline

[frog]

Glad to hear from you Mxpro. I was wondering how you were doing since we seem to be on a similar timeline. I've also been having a few straight days in a row every week where I actually feel pretty darn good and capable of tackling all the things I used to do without any thought. As everyone else said this whole experience really is like waves in the ocean. I'm still struggling with the acceptance bit quite a lot but I'm trying. 

 

As for sleep I think you should consider talking to your doctor about something else you can take to really get your sleep in order. I'm taking Seroquel 50mg before bedtime. It basically acts like a sedative. I seem to be able to get about 5-6 hours straight through while I take it. I'm scared of getting dependent either physically or psychologically on anything at the moment so I decided on my own to skip a couple nights every few days just in case. You can imagine that I pretty much don't sleep on those nights. When I told this to my NP he was really concerned. He said sleep is incredibly important to the recovery process and not sleeping can have days long consequences on the anxiety. I think he's right. I definitely feel more anxious and tired and worse overall after I don't sleep. He recommended that I try the gabapentin on the nights I take off from Seroquel. 

[invalidusername]

Hmmm Seroquel needs a good 4-5 days straight to build up appropriate levels to react optimum effects, so taking a couple of days off after time will mean you are resetting the clock each time. I am not sure this is a good idea. Gabapentin is the same. In my opinion, I would let the Seroquel do the work quicker and then slowly reduce the dose. You may find that you need the drugs longer, thus increasing the risk of dependency, if you operating this method of switching as they will never deliver their desired efficiency.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Be interested to see what Hat thinks.

[fishinghat]

Information from Drug insert and WebMD...

Gabapentin elimination half-life is 5 to 7 hours
The maximum time between doses should not exceed 12 hours. (because by that time 75% is out of the body.)

Seroquel half-life 6 hours.

I would say the same applies to gabapentin. If you go without either for more than 24 hours without either then that drug will be 93.5% out of your system.

[invalidusername]

'Nuf said. Your Doc should have told you this...

[frog]

I'm only taking the Seroquel to help me get to sleep since the propranolol doesn't do anything for that. I take it in the evening right before bed and can pretty consistently get at least 6 hours straight of sleep. Since I only take it once every 24 hours anyway I guess with a half life of 6 hours it would never build up much so would you say that it's ok to just take it every night and likely not develop any dependency on it? If so then I'd just stick to the Seroquel and not take Gabapentin at all. Doc said that the Gabapanetin doesn't work as well for sleep and most people wake up in the night and have to take more. I'd prefer to keep the variety of drugs I'm taking to a minimum of course and really hoping that after another month or two I'll be able to sleep on my own again.

[fishinghat]

If it works that well in a single dose each evening stick with it. As we say here. If it works don't fix it.  lol

[frog]

Great! Should I be concerned about any potential of dependency at 50mg once a day? Or is it worth taking a break after every 4 or so nights like I have been? I haven't tried the gabapentin yet so I don't know for certain how well it works for me for sleep. Doc also said it's ok to take up to 4 seroquel (which would be 100mg) but no more than that. I was considering trying 3 per evening instead of 2 to see if it keeps me asleep for longer but then worried about increasing risk of dependency too. 

 

Overall with my current schedule of prop and seroquel I'm not skating through by any means but it's made things a lot more tolerable.