1191 replies to this topic

[Mxpro32]

I think I must notice how good I've been doing right before a downturn cause every time I tell my wife, brother, or post on here, everything gets bad again.  my anxiety has been off the charts, and I can't sleep for crap.  I am in a stressful situation, but I don't think it warrants this level of anxiety.  it feels like I'm losing everything and my world is crashing down around me.  I'm expecting the worst out of everything.  

[fishinghat]

The rollercoaster of emotions can be extended by even a small amount  of stress. Don't worry it will pass.

[frog]

Stress creates a cascading effect in our bodies. It's like dominoes falling. I think after withdrawal the dominoes are extra wobbly. You also say that you seem to feel worse right after you tell someone how great you feel. I wonder if it's related. Maybe you notice you're feeling better and you put some pressure on yourself that you will now always feel good. Meeting that kind of expectation can be stressful too. 

 

Also I think after having gone through withdrawal we are so much more sensitive to the slightest changes physically or with our moods. I notice with myself how quickly I think I recognize signs of panicking or anxiety. I'm on high alert looking for it. I'm betting as soon as you see any of those signs you start to get frustrated and upset that it's still happening. 

 

In any case, you're not losing everything and your world is not crashing around you. I know because you've said this before and then later told us that it wasn't true Anxiety is such a nasty little voice in our heads. It always speaks in these grand sweeping ways. Black and white. EVERYTHING is terrible and it will definitely be terrible FOREVER. I don't think anything can really be terrible forever. You're going through something stressful but it will resolve eventually. Patience, as FH would say.

[invalidusername]

Hi MX - apologies for my delay keeping up with this all. I have been subject to far too much stress recently with work and personal life and I have really missed coming to the site.

 

"Stress creates a cascading effect in our bodies. It's like dominoes falling. I think after withdrawal the dominoes are extra wobbly"

 

Frog really has a way with her words. I love this example. It can be that you feel almost superstitious after writing on here, thinking that something could happen just because you have written here! Perfectly plausible. And again, I agree with Frog that you could easily put a lot of pressure on yourself for having felt good and to then maintain that. I am awful for that! In fact, I am right there at the moment having dealt well with a lot of work and now the last couple of days everything has calmed and there is nothing going on, so the pressure is on to keep my thoughts in check as there is no work or distraction to keep them at bay!

 

And yes, the current covid is REALLY not helping. We are in a "tier 4" here and pretty much in lockdown - with worse threatened to come in the New Year. There is no stability and that will always be there for now. Self compassion need to play a bit part at these times. 

[Mxpro32]

hey gang.  I haven't been back here in a while because I've been trying not to focus on my problems.  I'm really considering going back on some other med though.  does anybody have luck on anything or are they all as terrible as cymbalta?  I just feel so dang pessimistic and sad all the time.  the last few days I've been super depressed.  I feel as if I'm losing everything.  like my business is going to fail and I'm going to be miserable.  objectively, I have a new product I'm developing that should be successful to compete with the product that is threatening my business, but I'm just so pessimistic it feels like I've already lost everything and I'm going to have to go get a job, which I feel I won't be able to do given my condition.  I feel like my emotions are appropriate for a guy that thinks he is losing everything, but the pessimism makes it impossible not to think that way.  even daily boring life is uncomfortable because I can't even remember how I got enjoyment out of it.  I have no idea what motivates a normal person as everything feels like a laborious slog.  the anxiety has actually been much better, but I think thats just because I've quit fighting and worrying about the bad things that can happen and have moved on to resignation that they are inevitable, which makes me super depressed.  it might just be that I've been really depressed the last few days, but I don't know how much more of this I can take.  I'm not suicidal, but the thought crosses my mind that it would be easier if I didn't wake up.  my kids are the main thing fighting that feeling.  I just feel like the best days are behind me and I can't shake it.  I can't picture a future where I feel good.  everything just feels like shit.  I miss the times when my kids were little and everything was optimistic and good.  my baby was born on the 17th and hes healthy and growing.  hes a good baby and I feel so guilty my healthy family isn't enough to make me content.  I remember being happy 5 years ago.  my facebook feed was full of smiles and jokes and I remember a friend I hadn't seen in a while asking how I had been and I answered "fantastic".  He said "I like that answer".  I asked my psych doc when I switched to cymbalta and he said 5 years ago.  I was on pristiq before that for 5 years and effexor before that.  is every psych med going to screw me up like cymbalta did, or is there something that might provide some relief until the world returns to normal?  

 

I do have to say in some ways I am making progress still.  a few months ago I couldn't work in my shop, and now I have minimal issues with it, and I've been working hard designing a new product.  I'm not waking up in terror/fear every morning any more.  my sleep has been better (until the baby came).  the last few days being depressed my sleep has gone to shit again.  wide awake after 4-5 hours.  overall my anxiety is much better, to where its not really an issue any more most of the time.  I think the book ivun recommended helped with that.  I think I might actually be doing ok if my business was hunky dory and the world wasn't so damn crazy.  the stress from this new competitor has really been the stress that is doing me in.   the thought of getting a job spikes my anxiety and makes me feel despair because I don't think I'm up to it.  I really don't think I'm going to have to but feeling like I'm only going to be ok if everything works out my way is a significant stressor and source of depression and anxiety.  so I don't know if I should try something to help short term or not.  

[fishinghat]

First of all it is good to hear from you again and congratulations on the beautiful baby. It is also good to hear you are still improving albeit slowly. The three antidepressants that have the best reputation are Prozac, Lexapro and Zoloft. All have been around awhile. Of course you already know what kind of side effects and withdrawals are possible with any antidepressant. You have to do what you think is necessary. I am sure that covid, your business issues, and dealing with a new baby are contributing to your emotional issues as well. If there is anything I can do just let me know.

[Mxpro32]

what about wellbutrin?  it doesn't effect serotonin so its not supposed to be as hard to quit.  yeah, I really feel like I would be doing much better if it wasn't for all of the extra stress.  I still don't handle stress well at all.  everything still feels very raw and powerful.  I feel like I could cry at any moment.  

[fishinghat]

Residual withdrawal symptoms/sensitivity. From what I understand Wellbutrin does have a significant but not drastic withdrawal like all antidepressants and does carry an increased risk of seizures when combined with certain other meds. Overall not a bad idea.

[Mxpro32]

How long does that sensitivity last. Sometimes the numbness of meds sounds good but I'd rather feel too.

[fishinghat]

The medical journal articles say on average 2 years for nerves to stabilize and loose most of their hypersensitivity. It has been my experience on this site that typically I would say 18 to 24 months, The longest one I know finally settled down after 5 years, a few after 3 or 4 years. Life changing stuff those antidepressants. 

[frog]

Hi Mxpro!

Congratulations on a healthy beautiful baby! 

 

Want to validate how you're feeling as being a really understandable reaction to everything you've got going on right now, just like FH said. I think if you took a poll, many people would probably admit that they are not finding joy in things right now. Some people who enjoy their alone time are probably thriving, but I think the rest of us feel like you do. Daily, boring life isn't enjoyable because we all know that there's nothing "normal" about it. I feel anxious about leaving the house and I think that's partly because I've gotten so deep into my comfort zone (home) but also partly because frankly the outside world is a mess right now. Whether you worry that much about the pandemic or not, everything just feels wrong and weird and certainly pointless. And on top of that you have a new baby and you're having stress with your work. I feel like your expectations of how you should be feeling right now are maybe just a bit unrealistic? Especially comparing how you feel today to 5 years ago, when I'm sure life circumstances were very different. 

 

I've also tossed around the idea of going on an SSRI but I've decided to wait until the world is back to normal to make the call. I want to be really sure before I potentially sign on for another withdrawal and I don't think I can be sure of where exactly I'm at until I know it's not just existential dread from a year long pandemic that's stressing me out. I feel like you'll know when you've really had enough and you really are better off going on something

[Mxpro32]

thanks.  hes pretty wonderful.  well I'm out of my 3 day depression funk.  they come along once in a while but only last a few days.  I'm realizing my feelings are appropriate for the thoughts and beliefs I have.  I really believe I'm losing everything, and my feelings are appropriate for those thoughts.  I'm living in emergency mode, so mundane life doesn't seem important so I don't have motivation for it.  no doubt my sensitivity due to withdrawal keeps me in a heightened state of anxiety that feeds the negative thoughts though.  I've caught myself straying from what was working.  I was meditating and practicing acceptance and letting go of control and trying to embrace uncertainty.  trying to slow things down so the world doesn't seem like its going so fast I can't keep up.  then I get off track and start trying to stress and think my way into absolute safety in an attempt to rid myself of the anxiety and depression which ultimately makes them worse.  I think I'm going to try and stay away from meds until life returns to somewhat normal as long as I can tolerate it.  I need to stay away from social media too.  it just fuels the thoughts that the world is going to hell and my life is unstable and scary.  today I worked all morning in the yard with my kids and it was nice.  I haven't had motivation to do stuff like that because it seems unimportant when I'm in a frantic emergency.  love to you all.  

[Mxpro32]

apparently I spoke too soon.  same mistake I always make when I have a good period, I think I have it all figured out then I get hit with a wave of anxiety and depression.  I had a great couple of days where everything seemed clear, then this evening a huge emotional upwelling followed by anxiety, and now depression again.  I think so much is still out of my control and its scary.  so disappointing and irritating.  I just want to cry.  

[fishinghat]

Given what you have been through and the current world situation it is understandable.

[Mxpro32]

I'm still thinking maybe my moods are appropriate to my thoughts and beliefs, but my system is so sensitive it reacts super strong and quick to any thoughts I have.  one negative thought and my anxiety spikes and my mood plummets, and when the mood plummets my thoughts get even more negative.  I'm hoping if my system gets less reactive my moods will be more like steering a ship than yanking the wheel on a race car.  

[frog]

I think that's all exactly right. I would also add that there's a ceiling for how much stress you can handle before feeling overwhelmed by it. Like you have a balloon, it gets bigger and bigger as you add more and more stressful thoughts and situations into it and you can cope with it but at a certain point even a little extra takes you over the top and the balloon pops. We just don't always notice how full the balloon is until it's too late you know? 

[invalidusername]

Hi MX...

 

That last post from Frog sums things up so well. It is something I have been struggling with for so long. It can take a lot of discipline and patience to get there. You really need to focus on the fact that you had those good days - forget how many and when and what you did - the point is that you are capable of having them. There is nothing wrong with your system. 

 

As Hat said, there is everything going against us in the world with the COVID situation - do not underestimate that. The world is full of bad energy - it is everywhere. Here in the UK, we are getting locked down even more and I simply cannot think about it. It is too much. 

 

Onto nicer things - and my congrats on the birth of your new arrival. Again as Hat said, this can be a trigger for so many - you are not alone. DO NOT feel guilty about this. You have a long time ahead when you will be able to further appreciate these things. Strength is hard to find. So many of my clients and friends have come to me and started a conversation with "I have really started suffering depression. I can't get out of bed in the morning". Regular, work-a-day Joes who were perfectly content with life. I know it doesn't always help - we feel so alone despite what is going on in the world, but having a reason for it often makes up for a good portion of the feelings.

[Mxpro32]

Oddly enough, my anxiety about the baby coming was pretty bad, and now that he's here its much better. You are right about the bad energy in the world right now. You go in public and everyone is so serious. No one smiles or makes conversation. The masks are a little dehumanizing, but its more than that. Then you throw in the politics and how divided we are and how crazy everything is getting and its easy to start believing everything is crappy and always will be. Then the kicker is I'm already struggling to get back to normal from withdrawals. This is an unfortunate time to have a challenger to my business. It feels like the stressors just won't stop coming at me. The good news is I'm still handling it and improving slowly. If everything was back to normal and all these stressor were gone I feel like I would be doing pretty well right now.

[frog]

Sounds like in the case of your son the anticipation was what was getting to you. Now he's here and as predicted you've been able to rise to the challenge and even enjoy the good parts of it all 

 

I definitely wouldn't discount the state of things as being a huge cause of anxiety or depression. We were coming out of an incredibly stressful period from withdrawal and we were using that as a yard stick to gauge our improvement. Then at the same exact time there are these outside factors causing lots of anxiety, stress and depression and we just assumed it was because we weren't getting any better. The truth is that there's just a new set of circumstances and we weren't yet set up to cope with stress on our own without Cymbalta, especially stress of the kind of magnitude we've experienced for the last year. 

 

I don't know if you're struggling more with depression or anxiety but if you're having trouble with anxiety I have had a lot of success with L-theanine. Honestly it's been night and day for me. I was having chest tightness/shortness of breath constantly I mean literally all day every day to some extent so I was stuck in a feedback loop of anxiety. Since I've been taking the L-theanine I have minimal shortness of breath to the point that I don't notice it or ignore it most of the time. This alone has allowed me to relax a lot more, but I think it's also given me some distance from anxious thoughts when they arise. Not sure how to explain it but before I would often grab on to every random worrisome thought that would float by and entertain it and give it life. Now the thoughts still come but it's like I can just watch them float on by without feeling the need to consider them. Things feel more hopeful again, and less burdensome. Even my job which used to make me so stressed out I could barely breathe, now feels more manageable. Also I used to get overwhelmed with emotion frequently like if I was watching a movie or something like that. I can still feel the emotion welling up at times but it's not overwhelming like a burst dam anymore. 

 

I take 100mg in the AM and 100mg in the PM. I think FH has said you can even do more than that if you need to. I haven't had any side effects. For me it's as if I'm taking a mild SSRI or something but without all the nasty junk that goes along with that. 

[invalidusername]

Unfortunately, this is all a game of patience, and a tough one at that.

 

I am sure I speak for all, but here in the UK, it is very much the case of what MX is talking about. Even neighbours are spying to see if anyone sneaks out to do a bit of work - so if I am seem leaving the appartment with my work bag, I would be in for it. It sucks.

 

L-Theanine is sure worth a punt if you haven't already as Frog said. 400mg is a safe dose if it comes to it, and 600mg is possible, but pushing it. Always start low and work your way up remembering that it will (in most cases) take a few days to build up in your system.

[Mxpro32]

I'm actually in a really good place the last few days.  for the most part I've been in a weird place.  I wouldn't call it anxiety, but stressful thoughts seem to skip past the anxiety as if they've already happened an I feel despair.  on good days I'm really confident in my abilities and really happy with the new product I'm developing and really confident its going to do great.  on the down days it feels like I've already lost everything, and my emotions reflect that.  I think the feelings are appropriate for my thoughts and beliefs, but I don't have a lot of control of those at the moment.  the actual depression is still pretty rare.  I'll get a few day stretch here and there.  The Suntheanine chewables have worked fantastic.  I take one whenever the anxiety starts building and it really chills me out.  I actually think I've made a ton of improvement in stress tolerance even, now I just need to work on putting my thoughts into context as anyone would feel scared and terrible if they believed what I believe.  last night I did the thing where I spring wide awake after 5 hours, and it made me realize I haven't really been doing that any more.  just when I'm depressed. I still have days where I wake up down and my thoughts and beliefs are already in the gutter.  will be nice to get some control over that.  I ran out of my 27mg concerta (extended release ritalin) so I've been taking some leftover 54mg and my mood has been much better and my productivity has been good.  I'm more interested in learning things and developing products than my mental state.  I'm thinking of bumping up to 36mg for a while.  

 

I rode my dirtbike today at the track and wrecked and broke something in my shoulder, got a concussion, and a tire to the crotch.  so thats a bummer.  

[Mxpro32]

Boy, I've never had a concussion before. Its no fun. Bad headache, really fuzzy headed. I feel like I have the flu. My wife took the baby upstairs so I could sleep better. My neck really hurts too.

[fishinghat]

That sounds like a really bad one. Be sure and take it easy until the dr OKs doing things again. Sorry you are going through that.

[invalidusername]

Really sorry to hear of your accident there MX. But don't let it put you off!! It is great to be finding yourself back in these places again where you can really enjoy yourself.

 

"I actually think I've made a ton of improvement in stress tolerance"

 

That is fantastic - a sure sign that things are moving in the right direction. Focus on this and make sure you give yourself the necessary self-pat on the back!

[Mxpro32]

The last few nights my insomnia has been back. I spring awake after 5 hours and can't go back to sleep. Now I feel exhausted and depressed. I have this strange feeling of death, loneliness, and fear like someone close to me has died. I'm getting scared I'm never actually going to be normal. I'm having derealization and I feel doomed. The insomnia and depression are linked, I just don't know which causes which. I talk to my psychiatrist today. If I try another antidepressant, will it reduce the effectiveness of others down the road? I don't want to be without options.

[fishinghat]

Another antidepressant is an option but as you said it may increase the odds of you developing treatment resistant depression. Either way you go there is no sure route to success. Is there something that has set off this depression?

[invalidusername]

I'm with Hat here, there is nearly always some trigger there, but it can often be elusive and not obvious, but it is there. I really feel for you, but I wouldn't start playing med roulette over something that I am sure WILL pass.

 

I can't remember what you have tried in the past, but have you been on both ssri and snri?

[Mxpro32]

I think that particular depressed episode with disturbing thoughts was brought on by the concussion and not being able to take my concerta (extended release ritalin).  the doctor said not to take it while my brain heals.  any time I stop cold turkey on the concerta my thoughts get dark and weird.  true depression only happens in 2-3 day stretches once in a while for me now.  my main issue now is my nerves and emotions being super sensitive.  I get overwhelmed with emotion, and most of the time I feel like I could cry.  its exhausting.  thats why its tempting to take a med that numbs you out a little.  I almost never have a sense of well being and my insomnia is back.  I know I'm still improving, its just hard to accept that it could still take a while to feel normal.  I really should be grateful that I've improved as much as I have.  I can function well now, some of my creativity is coming back.  my anxiety is way down most of the time, its just replaced with hyperactive emotion.  I think I'm feeling good enough that I expect to feel ok and normal, so setbacks are discouraging.  I probably sound like a broken record, but it helps me to get it out here.  

[fishinghat]

Vent to your hearts content Mxpro. The thought that your depression stems from the stopping of the concerta makes perfect sense.

[invalidusername]

Glad to read that you are seeing the positives - that is a sure sign that you really are on the way up. The setbacks can be just devastating. In the midst of them you can be convinced that it is game over and you are back to where you started, and another 2 years of depression will ensue. But like you say, they only last 2-3 days. You know there is an end to this tunnel each time and the more you can get this into your routine, the quicker they will disappear.

 

It is a point of getting yourself to a place where you simply pay it no mind. It will go even quicker, and remember that no-one will have a string of perfect days, unless you are a game show host.It is normal to have a day a week or so where you aren't feeling so good. 

 

This is often a problem when people are on the recover. They are expecting to have a 100% record. But ask someone, anyone - they will remember when they had an "off-day". Happens to us all. But again, the point is to accept it. Don't anticipate these days, just take them as they come and just let it flow over you knowing that it will pass as quick as it came.