1191 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

Beet Root Extract

 

Beetroot also contains phenolics (45.68mg Gallic acid equivalents) and flavonoids (25.89mg Rutin equivalents) with both betanin (4.09mg/g), betalain and vulgaxanthin (7.32mg/g).

Vulić JJ, et al. Antiradical, antimicrobial and cytotoxic activities of commercial beetroot pomace. Food Funct. (2013)

 

Beetroot supplementation has been associated with a decrease in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure. It is a vasodialator (expands blood vessels).

Siervo M, et al. Inorganic nitrate and beetroot juice supplementation reduces blood pressure in adults: a systematic review and meta-analysis. J Nutr. (2013)

^Hobbs DA, et al. Acute ingestion of beetroot bread increases endothelium-independent vasodilation and lowers diastolic blood pressure in healthy men: a randomized controlled trial. J Nutr. (2013)

 

There has been evidence, in rats, that increased beetroot consumption results in an accumulation of copper, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, and zinc.

Blázovics A, et al. Extreme consumption of Beta vulgaris var. rubra can cause metal ion accumulation in the liver. Acta Biol Hung. (2007)

 

In Finland, raw beetroot consumption was linked with several cases of sudden gastrointestinal illness.

Jacks A, et al. Raw grated beetroot linked to several outbreaks of sudden-onset gastrointestinal illness, Finland 2010. Epidemiol Infect. (2013)

 

Beet root extract is very high in nitrates and it therefore effects many different pyshiological systems. Unfortunately, the risk of developing kidney stones due to the high oxalate content of beetroots, and the possibility of stomach upsets, or unsafe dips in blood pressure can of concern, Nay aggrevate artritis inflamation.

 

The NHS actually lists beetroot among the foods to avoid due to their oxalate content, for those looking to prevent kidney stone formation.

https://www.nhs.uk/c...nes/prevention/

 

The fructans, a form of short-chain carbohydrates, can be problematic for those with a sensitive gut, including people with irritable bowel syndrome.

Fedewa, Amy, and Satish SC Rao. “Dietary fructose intolerance, fructan intolerance and FODMAPs.” Current gastroenterology reports 16, no. 1 (2014): 1-8.

[fishinghat]

Also, just found this.

 

Beta vulgaris Linn. ethanolic extract (BVEE) exhibits anxiolytic and antidepressant activity in stressed mice along with good antioxidant property suggesting its therapeutic potential in the treatment of stress-related psychiatric disorders.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4753754/

[Mxpro32]

I went to bed earlier last night (11:30) and still woke up 5 hours later at 4:30.  its almost better to stay up late so I'm not laying in bed frustrated for hours.  its weird.  I feel exhausted, but no dice on sleep.  I tried to take a nap yesterday and it wasn't going to happen.  its been 11 months of this crap.  I'm starting to feel like I'm never going to sleep again.  luckily, I'm actually feeling decent.  I'm learning how to handle my bad days better.  yesterday I was exhausted and feeling depressed, but I found ways to get some joy out of the day anyway.  I didn't focus so much on how awful I felt and just went about my day.  

[invalidusername]

I didn't focus so much on how awful I felt and just went about my day.  

 

That is the best thing to do. There is no fighting depression. That is what sucks. If your anxiety gets THAT bad, there is always a benzo that can give periodic relief (although not to be relied on long term), but there is no such equivalent for depression. 

 

Depression is down right scary, and I myself am right in the middle of a horrible wave of depression over last 24 hours. What you said is exactly what you should do as best you can. There is so much bravery in what you are doing, but it is OK to feel afraid.

 

But can a man be brave if he is afraid?

 

That is the only time he can be brave...

[frog]

Mxpro I'm with you on the sleep thing. I'm about the same. 5 hours... Occasionally I randomly get a great night of sleep. Two nights ago I slept for 8 hours straight and woke up with hardly any groggines and felt energized and ready for the day. Pretty sure I haven't felt that way in at least 10 months. I thought it was the magnesium that helped but tried that again last night and no dice. I'm sick of it. Will I ever be able to sleep normally again? 

[invalidusername]

I've gone the other way recently. Probably all the stress, and I am totally monging myself out.

 

So I go past my 7 hours, although I usually wake up around then, but then still tired and I'm off to the land of nod again, BUT, I have found that my dreams completely screw me up after this point. And I am not talking your usual stuff - proper freaky stuff. Last night I was a minature version of Donald Trump, I set the floor of a build on fire, then jumped out the window, became a super hero and put the fire out. Then I went back into the building and urinated baked beans. WTF?!?

 

Seriously. I know you guys are pissing yourself with laughter, but its not right is it!!

 

The worst part is that I have derealisation for about 2 hours after I wake when this occurs.

[fishinghat]

Funny, I thought those kind of dreams were common.

[Mxpro32]

I've gone the other way recently. Probably all the stress, and I am totally monging myself out.

 

So I go past my 7 hours, although I usually wake up around then, but then still tired and I'm off to the land of nod again, BUT, I have found that my dreams completely screw me up after this point. And I am not talking your usual stuff - proper freaky stuff. Last night I was a minature version of Donald Trump, I set the floor of a build on fire, then jumped out the window, became a super hero and put the fire out. Then I went back into the building and urinated baked beans. WTF?!?

 

Seriously. I know you guys are pissing yourself with laughter, but its not right is it!!

 

The worst part is that I have derealisation for about 2 hours after I wake when this occurs.

hahaha.  I rarely remember my dreams or even remember having them anymore.  

 

I'm with you frog.  I'm wondering if Im every going to sleep normal again.  thats probably the toughest part at this point.  every day starts off with a bunch of frustration/agitation/anxiety/fear after waking way too early and exhausted.  this morning the fear response was worse than normal and it takes a long time to dissipate if at all.  for the most part lately, my mood gets better as the day goes on luckily, but I'm still exhausted.  Its like I'm pushing a rock up the hill every day, just to wake up in a quagmire at the bottom of the hill every morning.  I try napping, but I haven't been able to fall asleep once for a nap since this started.  

[frog]

no naps here either. 

still have to take seroquel at night to fall asleep. since i stopped taking gabapentin at night most nights im sleeping about 5 hours then groggigly rolling around for a couple more

[invalidusername]

Frog/MX....

 

How you guys getting on today?

 

Been thinking of you both with your sleep. I foolishly took (only half) a dramamine as I was still a little freaked about the amount of work going on, and I was out cold for about 4 hours this afternoon. Woke feeling I had completely wasted the day!

[Mxpro32]

Frog/MX....

 

How you guys getting on today?

 

Been thinking of you both with your sleep. I foolishly took (only half) a dramamine as I was still a little freaked about the amount of work going on, and I was out cold for about 4 hours this afternoon. Woke feeling I had completely wasted the day!

 

I'm doing pretty well.  things feel like they are kind of falling into place.  I'm still not sleeping well, and I still feel shitty from time to time, but I'm coping better.  my focus is starting to turn to external things I can work on to improve, relationships, etc.  I haven't been waking up in fear for the most part, although I had a lot of fear when I woke up this morning.  I'm not letting things bother me as much though.  I'm not as fearful of the fear anymore.  I'm trying to focus less on how I feel, and more on my actions and thoughts.  I'm trying to see my strong emotions as moments in time and not be so scared that they are permanent.  just letting them come and go and trying to see them as a blessing.  I have a couple of analogies I like lately.  one is like riding a bike without training wheels.  cymbalta was like training wheels.  it numbed all of the emotions so I wouldn't feel negative emotions so powerfully, but it robbed life of meaning.  life without cymbalta is like riding a bike without training wheels.  until you get used to it, you are going to fall down and feel some pain, but you can also do a lot more on a bike without training wheels.  I'm trying to see the "falls" as part of the learning process, and the price to be paid for experiencing a fuller life.  the key is to get back up without wallowing on the ground too long.  my other analogy helps me explain how much control I have.  my general mood is like the weather and I don't have much control over that, and I suspect the weather will get nicer with time.  my thoughts and inner control is how I see and deal with the weather.  I can be pissed its raining, or grab an umbrella and get on with it.  I've been doing a much better job of letting stressful thoughts or scary moods just be what they are and letting them go.  I've been feeling good enough lately that I'm getting antsy if I'm not doing something.  I still don't always feel like doing something so its creating some discomfort, but when I force myself to do something productive I feel better.  I see it as a positive for sure though, because when you aren't depressed and are feeling normal, you aren't supposed to want to do nothing.  I'm being compelled to do more, now I just need to work on not being overwhelmed when I do more.  

[fishinghat]

Ahh. the beginning of feeling human. That's great mxpro. 

[invalidusername]

Fantastic post MX.

 

This is something I really needed to read and consider myself being in the middle of a depressive phase. I need to "grab an umbrella". It has been almost a year since I have had to deal with the fear of the mornings, but alas, they are back for the moment and I have that state where I would just much prefer to chow down on a few dramamine and sleep the day away rather than face it, but we know that will get you nowhere. 

 

In order to achieve change, one must learn how to change and give life the opportunity to do this, Nothing can happen sitting in bed all day. So difficult but you are on the right road completely. This is awesome progress...

[Mxpro32]

I havent been sleeping more than 5 hours,  but I haven't been waking up too anxious so its easy enough to brush off and typically I can relax in bed and maybe doze in and out a little.  last night I slept 4 hours and woke up in fearful, anxious panic and couldn't fall back to sleep at all.  starting my day like that is the worst.  its hard to shake off.  I'm exhausted and flooded with anxiety.  oh well, I'll try to make the best of it.  thats the thing I struggle the most with, is wondering if I'll ever sleep well again.  

[frog]

Mxpro that sounds like real progress! I think you're almost there. Where you're finally able to see beyond the days where you don't feel right because there are more days where things are clicking back online. I can relate to the feeling of discomfort when I'm not doing something. I think for me this is partly pandemic related too. The lack of overall activity and lack of differentiation between work and unwinding makes me antsy and stressed out. We have no physical separation between the two. Everything happens essentially in the same room. Getting outside is the only relief we have but between the spate of gray, sad days we had in August and now the crazy smoke and ash, it's not always easy. 

 

I've honestly been... good. Like legitimately good. Not perfect, not completely back to normal. But so close. I'm guessing that because I'm still not sleeping right and often waking up from anxious weird dreams, and my gut is still not back to normal (I'm holding it together through a little imodium and fiber supplements) that means my body is not back to homeostasis and some improvement is still ahead both with those two things as well as the anxiety related to them. The biggest turnaround moment for me was when I stopped getting panic attacks, and when I stopped getting the weird adrenaline jolts that would frequently accompany passing thoughts. They were obviously a sign of some kind of discord. And their constant presence also kept me in a state of stress and anxiety. Since they've passed life has gotten so much easier and more relaxed. There are still things that make me anxious as a result of all the mental trauma I've experienced and ways in which my body still makes me worried or not confident. I'm trying to take an exposure therapy approach to it and build up one step at a time to rebuild the foundation of confidence that was broken down over the last 10 months. I'm no longer anxious about social situations, I'm more confident about running random errands and leaving the house. It's a process. I'm still nervous about long drives, being away from home for multiple nights, going on hikes. One thing I'm hopeful about is that by breaking down the shaky foundations I had and rebuilding them from scratch I'm hoping I can rebuild them better and stronger this time

[Mxpro32]

boy, my anxious mornings have been back with a vengeance.  I'm so sleepy and exhausted when I wake up after 4-5 hours, but my anxiety is through the roof and I can't go back to sleep.  it feels like the world is ending.  today I've been super sleepy and exhausted, but crazy anxiety all day.  I feel like crying and sleeping, but I can't do either.  I'm getting emotionally and physically drained from lack of sleep.  

[frog]

I think I remember you saying that you were taking Trazadone for sleep? Maybe a slightly higher dose will help you to sleep better? I'm sure the last thing you want to do is throw more meds into the mix but poor sleep can definitely keep you in a cycle of misery. 

[Mxpro32]

I actually slept pretty well last night.  Not sure why.  My anxiety is still on edge, like any wrong thought starts a cascade. It’s exhausting.  I’m wondering if it’s because I’m getting so low on the klonopin. I only have 5 more days.  I feel very emotional like I’m going to cry but I can’t.

[invalidusername]

Hey MX...

 

I'm joining you with the lack of sleep. Getting about 5... maybe 6 hours. As soon as I stir a little, dread is right there. It does clear after a while of coming around, but there is no chance of more sleep. Did have a bit of a cry this afternoon too. Just had enough. Nearly a year of all that shit behind me and now this.

 

Really sorry to hear that your anxiety is still presiding over your waking life. Very different from depression in that I don't feel run down like you do, which is a bonus. Wish there was something else that could help you with it all. You have been going so well at this for so long. You are always doing the best thing in combating it. But these little moments like last nights sleep for you will hopefully be a sign of things to come...

 

IUN

[Mxpro32]

Ive been having anxiety of the panic attack variety lately.  I'll wake up kinda calm, till I have a "what if" thought, then my anxiety goes through the roof and I feel like i'm going to have runaway panic anxiety.  usually, I just wake up with general anxiety and unease.  now I'll wake up fairly calm and spike to much worse anxiety than normal.  I'm wondering if its because I'm getting so low on the klonopin?  I only have 4 days left

[fishinghat]

I went through that phase during both Cymbalta and my first benzo withdrawal. Luckily it passes.

[invalidusername]

Quite possible the Klonopin. But one can usually tell if it is a chemical reaction or a self-reaction. But that I mean, if you feel anxious before the thoughts then it is chemical, but if it is the other way round, then it is you who is causing the anxiety. Although, after time, the two will become intertwined, so you won't be able to tell the difference. You end up getting anxious because you are anxious. And so it goes round and round.

 

"What ifs" are the worst. Combination of Claire Weekes, David Daish, my own therapist and damn hard work got me out of that.

[Mxpro32]

Quite possible the Klonopin. But one can usually tell if it is a chemical reaction or a self-reaction. But that I mean, if you feel anxious before the thoughts then it is chemical, but if it is the other way round, then it is you who is causing the anxiety. Although, after time, the two will become intertwined, so you won't be able to tell the difference. You end up getting anxious because you are anxious. And so it goes round and round.

"What ifs" are the worst. Combination of Claire Weekes, David Daish, my own therapist and damn hard work got me out of that.

My thoughts seem to be setting it off, but I seem pretty primed for it more than usual. I just feel fearful like something terrible is going to happen. My anxiety is starting to turn to sadness as the day goes on. Everything just feels overwhelming.

[fishinghat]

As IUN stated, the withdrawal makes you more vulnerable to over reacting to the "What ifs".

[Mxpro32]

yeah, my emotions feel very raw and powerful.  I'm feeling the sadness and pain of past tragedies and loss (including missing my kids when they were little again), and I'm basically feeling the pain stress and worry of an possible future tragedy or loss.  its like I felt when I was chopping pills and took too big of a drop.  its a very vulnerable feeling. 

[Mxpro32]

lately every day starts with a virtual panic attack.  this mornings offering was "what would i do if a customer sued me?"  super anxious racing thoughts.  some mornings the focus bounces from one stressful thing to the next.  it feels as if its actually happening.  I'm thinking it has something to do with being 2 days away from being done with klonopin.  I'm really hoping things don't intensify once I'm completely off like they did with cymbalta.  

[fishinghat]

With benzos the withdrawal symptoms are worse during the weaning and once off they begin to taper off after 2 o3 3 weeks.  Your last day is coming soon isn't it?

[Mxpro32]

2 more days

[Mxpro32]

boy, having had such terrible anxiety, and sleeping like crap, I've been experimenting with not taking my concerta.  it seemed like I was maybe sleeping a little better, but last night I slept like crap again.  Ive been pretty depressed the last few days so I'm wondering if thats what is doing it.  I tend to get depressed following periods of high anxiety too, so who knows.  it just sucks to be depressed.  I feel hopeless.  tonight is my last klonopin dose, Yay!  hopefully things turn around soon, but my pessimistic depressed self doesn't think so.  I just feel like crying and going to sleep, but I can't sleep so I'm stuck feeling like this.  I should probably keep taking the concerta and drop to a lower dose for a while before coming off.  my sleep seems to be crap either way, and at least it gives me energy. 

[frog]

Mxpro thats all exactly how I felt during the vast majority of the last nearly 11 months. Runaway panic attacks. At first they were just constant, no obvious cause, and really bad. Tunnel vision, shaking, racing heart, the whole 9 yards. Then at some point the intensity calmed but they started being triggered by thoughts. The slightest 'what if' thought and my chest would tighten and I would have trouble breathing and get very anxious. Basically it seemed instead of recognizing that these were just passing thoughts, my brain was percieving them as legitimate threats. It was incredibly frustrating and very disruptive and of course scary because I was concerned that I was now stuck like that with an overactive panic response. 

 

Needless to say I think the physical panic is how SNRI withdrawal manifests for me (and why I will never go on an SNRI ever again). I was on Effexor for about a year prior to Cymbalta, and when I stopped taking Effexor (I think it may have been cold turkey but I can't remember now) I had exactly TWO panic attacks before things went back to normal. Before Effexor I had NEVER experienced a panic attack in my life, so I literally thought I was dying. 

 

The good news is that in the last month I've had practically 0 panic symptoms. And since the panic has stopped a lot of the anxious thoughts have stopped with it because they were largely predicated on experiencing the constant intense anxiety, or anticipating experiencing it. I think throughout the last 11 moths I've tried to occupy myself by looking for things I could be doing to speed up the process and feel in control of what was happening to me. But looking back on it all, it all just happened on its own time. I don't think at any point I was ever in control of the timeline and I'm just guessing but it's probably the same for you. I do think whatever withdrawal has caused for you will eventually go away in due time. 

 

The other thing I'm trying to internalize is how much pressure I'm putting on myself to jump right back into all the things I used to be able to do before withdrawal, like trips, or road trips, or being away from home for longer periods of time, or going on hikes, or all of the above. I'm trying to remind myself that it's not all or nothing. I was able to do all those things before because I had spent years building the foundation blocks to feel comfortable to do it. The foundation has taken a beating because of withdrawal (and also COVID let's be honest) so I need to rebuild and reinforce some things and start small and build. Yesterday I went out and ran errands for several hours all across town. I had no anxiety and felt great! So I'm starting to reestablish what my comfort levels are right now. And then little by little I can start pushing those boundaries and expand. I'm sure you will be able to do the same with your work and with your family. I really do think things will get better! 

The sleep however is one I haven't been able to figure out either. My sleep was getting a little better recently and then last night I couldn't fall asleep for over an hour, my head was spinning with anxiety over how long it was taking to fall asleep, and how much my hip was hurting me, etc. It was a rough one and I woke up at 8am feeling anxious. I think I really need to stop being so casual about my sleep hygiene and really work on making sure I'm as relaxed and unstimulated as possible before going to sleep.