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2 Months Off After Somewhat Slow Taper. Really Struggling


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#631 invalidusername

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 09:48 AM

I have been told that exposure therapy is used mostly to treat phobias. Examples; a fear of horses then you would go to a stable and slowly be exposed to horse in a safe manner until your fear fades. Exposure therapy during withdrawal would be a bad idea. Your brain neurotransmitters are out of whack and exposure to any type of stress would evoke an anxiety response to these chemical reactions.

 

Absolutely. Exposure therapy does work when the neurological homeostasis is in force, but whilst the neurotransmitters are re-learning, you need to feeding it normal day-to-day responses. Exposure therapy inevitably includes a lot of anxiety inducing scenarios which will cause your brain to re-learn the wrong message.


#632 Mxpro32

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 02:56 PM

thanks.  thats the assumption I've been operating under.  trying to keep the stress response and anxiety down so my brain can adjust down to baseline.  I guess I'll stop berating myself for not functioning at full capacity.  easier said than done though.  this really makes your self esteem and self confidence take a hit because you can't count on yourself to function fully.  I've been pretty depressed the last few days.  I'm also only sleeping 4-5 hours and then waking up completely again.  its starting to make me tired and depressed.  or I'm depressed is why I can't sleep.  its tough to sort out.  I am really struggling keeping my head up seeing as how I've regressed back to my depressed insomnia days that I thought were long gone.  its awful.  when you are depressed, its at least nice to be able to get a full nights sleep and check out for a bit.  now it feels like there is no escaping it and its exhausting.  


#633 frog

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 05:24 PM

Mxpro I totally hear you. A lot of what you're saying describes how I feel to a T. I think the initial discontinuation hell was so traumatic and the recovery SO long and drawn out that it's feeling a lot of self-doubt about who I was before this. I've been going through periods of time where I feel somewhat at peace with the shutdown, followed by periods of time where I'm depressed, hopeless and apathetic. I've asked myself if I was going through this shutdown as the me from a year ago, before the discontinuation problems, would I still be struggling mentally/emotionally like this or would I be coping better. And honestly I have no idea!! None. At all. Except that I would probably be drinking more frequently. (not in a depressive way, but I used to love a few cocktails or beers to unwind) I think it's certainly possible I would be just as stressed out, uncertain and unhappy right now. I think I'm so in the habit of assuming everything that's emotionally difficult or unpleasant is being amplified by my brain's healing (and maybe it is? but maybe it's not?) that I'm ignoring the possibility that this could just be the normal emotional ups and downs of life. 

 

I know a lot of perfectly healthy people who are struggling with sleep recently, possibly for the first time ever. So I really wouldn't rule out COVID as the source of some of the things you're re-experiencing. Before it was stress induced by medication withdrawal, now it's stress induced by this huge unprecedented and uncertain thing we're all dealing with. The causes are different but the symptoms will manifest the same way. I think at the end of the day that's all that all of this is. Stress. But initially the stress was created internally by our own bodies and brains as they adjusted, now the stress is coming from outside factors. 

 

As far as the exposure therapy, I can relate to this too. I know it's usually about phobias like FH said, but I know what you're referring to. I think it's a delicate balance. When I was feeling a bit stronger but still kind of shitty (and the world was still open) I used it occasionally as a means to track my own progress. Pretty much everything that wasn't going to the office and being at home made me anxious because I was scared about having a panic attack or suddenly feeling super incapacitated in an environment that was unfamiliar. So when I was able to do something and get through it, it was a victory! Now I'm finding that I'm unable to test myself in those ways before because everything is closed and since I haven't done it in so long I've lost some of the confidence I had rebuild, which is a bummer.

 

HOWEVER! Every month I feel like I'm also feeling stronger and stronger and approaching the point where I'm not questioning my ability as much anymore. I just know that I will probably be able to do it even if I can't test it out right now.

 

This is all to say that I think it's ok to push yourself a little bit here and there, put yourself to the test here and there to give yourself some victories to rebuild and boost your confidence. But if you're really feeling super anxious about something I don't think you need to dive headfirst into that thing and overwhelm yourself. That'll probably backfire. You'll know when you're strong enough to do that again.

 

Is there a small work project you can take on that you feel pretty comfortable with? Maybe take on a really small portion of your previous work duties that feels achievable? And then build from there? Or even something around the house that took a backseat while you were feeling really bad but you can probably start up again? For me I knew I was feeling better when I started jumping in and doing a lot more of the chores around the house. It doesn't have to be all or nothing! Find some things you can accomplish and give yourself some wins. You deserve some wins!


#634 Mxpro32

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:41 PM

Thanks frog. I'm still doing all the customer service (calls and email) which is stressful but not optional. I'm the only one with the knowledge to do it. My guys are handling production without me for the most part so everything is fine. I just feel like I should be doing more so I'm hard on myself. It's not all just the anxiety either. I have so little motivation I can't make myself do anything. I feel like I want to run out of there. My outlook is so pessimistic, I feel like I'm screwed either way so what's the point. The sleep problems came back with the baby news. I think that has put pressure on me to get better faster. It also seems like another big responsibility when I can barely handle the responsibility I have now. A lot of my worry is whether I could handle anything going wrong. My life couldn't be better or easier than it is now and every day is still really hard. I've been harder on myself since my wife has been home too. I feel like I'll be judged for taking it easy (she's done this in the past, pre withdrawal of I did something fun during work hours). She's only taken 1 dig at me about it and I'm pretty sure it was pregnancy hormones.

We saw the baby ultrasound today. Everything is perfect. She's 7.5 weeks along. The baby thing still gets me at times, but mostly because I'm worried my head still won't be right by then. Honestly I'm worried it never will be.

#635 frog

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 07:13 PM

Yeah I think lack of motivation could be related to depression and vice versa. I'm sure a lot of this is circular to some degree. The weeks where I feel the most apathetic, lethargic and unmotivated, are also the weeks I feel the most depressed and frustrated, and feeling like the future looks grim and uncertain. Not sure which one comes first and COVID is obviously not helping either. Then other weeks I'll be trucking along with more of a 'I got this' attitude. It's very confusing. The IBS stuff I've been dealing with has recently brought back a lot of the same struggles and feelings as the Cymbalta recovery: this will never get better, I'll never live a normal "carefree" life again, etc. I think it's because similar to the Cymbalta stuff, the IBS stuff doesn't have a specific cause you can target and address and get better quickly. It takes a long time to see improvement so you just have to have faith that what you're doing is working and will eventually yield meaningful results. This is hard and mentally exhausting as you know. But I think for me this is the last big piece of the puzzle toward essentially a full recovery from the withdrawal. There's still little stuff of course that I think will still slowly improve, and I still have two super fun tapers to look forward to, but the GI issues have been really keeping me in a pattern of anxiety and worry that I can't wait to be released from. Plus I miss eating delicious food (I have to be super strict with my diet right now :( ) and that makes me sad, but I'm gonna figure it out just like I know you'll figure out everything you're dealing with!

 

So great to hear that baby is super healthy! That's one less thing to worry about. My close friend had her baby over the weekend and everyone is delighted of course COVID is a huge pain in the butt because their families were unable to be near during this time. Hoping by the time your baby arrives, things are MUCH better in that respect


#636 Mxpro32

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 11:10 PM

Ibs is the shits. I’ve dealt with it to a lesser degree for years.  It comes and goes with some days being much worse where it hits and I have to find a place to pull over in a hurry. Some days I’m on the pot so often it’s hard to get anything done.  I hope yours clears up soon as it sounds much worse than mine.


#637 TryinginFL

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Posted 20 May 2020 - 09:08 AM

Hello frog!

 

I also suffer from IBS and am just recovering from a horrible 3 week bout.  Last week I spent one day in bed as the pain was so great I could hardly walk.  It is indeed the worst thing I have ever had and seems to be brought on by stress.  Accidents are frequent and I spend a great deal of time in the bathroom when it is at its worst.

 

I have just recently been prescribed a drug called Hyoscyamine Sulphate which is a substiture for Levsin (very expensive!) and helps a great deal.  I still take immodium when taking this new drug but it is worth a try for you.

 

I have had this hideous disease for years and understand what you are going through.  I wish you the best and hope you will soon start to get back to normal.  And you are right - it comes on without any warning and is one of the worst things a person can suffer.

 

 Get well soon!

 

Liz


#638 fishinghat

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Posted 20 May 2020 - 09:39 AM

Hyoscyamine Sulphate

Excellent at controlling IBS-D.

Caution - This medicine makes patients extremely sensitive to heat stroke/heat exhaustion.

Incompatible with antihistamines and tricyclic antidepressants.

#639 TryinginFL

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Posted 20 May 2020 - 11:40 AM

Thanks, FH...

 

Thankfully I can't stand the heat down here in FL so don't spend much time outside.  Have had heat exhaustion in the past but that was before I ever took this medication.

 

FL summers are not for me!!


#640 frog

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 03:32 PM

Sorry to hear about others with IBS. It seems to be such a widespread problem with few answers. I haven't experienced much pain with it thankfully, because I know how horrible that can feel, it's just random bouts of urgency with poor bowel movements every time. I've literally been eating the same thing every day for almost 2 weeks to try to stabilize things. I was seeing some improvement actually but I've recently been forced to switch my birth control to a generic and it's been causing some issues and I think it's affected my gut the past few days. I swear if it's not one thing it's another!

 

Funny enough I think Cymbalta was keeping my IBS at bay. The whole time I was on Cymbalta I definitely leaned heavy on the constipated side but I didn't think too much of it. Now the pendulum has swung far in the opposite direction and doesn't seem to want to stop. I'm speaking to a registered dietitian in a couple weeks to hopefully help me figure out how to manage this through diet because it's a very confusing and seemingly complicated process. 

 

The IBS problems have definitely taken some toll on my mental health, last week I felt pretty down and depressed, but outside of that I really do feel at least 90% of the way better from withdrawal recovery. This week in particular I feel stronger, less anxious, more myself, even despite the shutdown. I still get somewhat nervous thinking about doing a lot of the things I haven't really been able to do since November like go out to restaurants, social gatherings, travel, etc. But at the same time I feel that I'm CAPABLE of doing these things again. I guess the nerves just come from the memories of how impossible those things were for so long. I'm not really sure how to make that go away other than just putting myself in those situations again (not possible right now of course unfortunately)


#641 fishinghat

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 04:35 PM

I had IBS with D for nearly 40 years. During that time I worked on diet, meds, homeopathic and pharmaceutical ways of controlling g it. I am now IBS free for 6 years.
 
Diet changes were based on journals I kept of what bothered me and what did not. I also began eating 6 very small meals a day.
 
I have not ate out in 10 years.
 
I eat foods that promote serotonin production. Primarily white poultry meats.
 
No hot or cold drinks, Luke warm water only. NO acidic food at all. No fat diet.
 
A good probiotic twice a day. (big help)
 
No sugars of any type including fruit.
 
High fiber diet.
 
I no longer take any medication.
 
That is all I can remember at this time.
 
I established a menu for each day of the week and have ate that every week since then and my stomach is solid as a rock.

#642 Mxpro32

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 04:47 PM

Sorry to hear about others with IBS. It seems to be such a widespread problem with few answers. I haven't experienced much pain with it thankfully, because I know how horrible that can feel, it's just random bouts of urgency with poor bowel movements every time. I've literally been eating the same thing every day for almost 2 weeks to try to stabilize things. I was seeing some improvement actually but I've recently been forced to switch my birth control to a generic and it's been causing some issues and I think it's affected my gut the past few days. I swear if it's not one thing it's another!

 

Funny enough I think Cymbalta was keeping my IBS at bay. The whole time I was on Cymbalta I definitely leaned heavy on the constipated side but I didn't think too much of it. Now the pendulum has swung far in the opposite direction and doesn't seem to want to stop. I'm speaking to a registered dietitian in a couple weeks to hopefully help me figure out how to manage this through diet because it's a very confusing and seemingly complicated process. 

 

The IBS problems have definitely taken some toll on my mental health, last week I felt pretty down and depressed, but outside of that I really do feel at least 90% of the way better from withdrawal recovery. This week in particular I feel stronger, less anxious, more myself, even despite the shutdown. I still get somewhat nervous thinking about doing a lot of the things I haven't really been able to do since November like go out to restaurants, social gatherings, travel, etc. But at the same time I feel that I'm CAPABLE of doing these things again. I guess the nerves just come from the memories of how impossible those things were for so long. I'm not really sure how to make that go away other than just putting myself in those situations again (not possible right now of course unfortunately)

interesting.  quitting cymbalta had the opposite effect for me.  I was constipated for the first time in my life.  I attributed it to the change in serotonin in my intestines.  now I'm not constipated any more, but my ibs is way better.  I have certain days where I go a lot, but the days when I have extreme urgency are pretty rare.  its  interesting, I was reading ibs is associated with anxiety and depression. 

 

I've been struggling pretty bad still with depression and lack of any interest.  I have been having pretty bad anxiety too, but the anxiety feels like it is triggered by the lack of motivation.  I'm worried that my lack of motivation is going to get me in trouble because I'm not functioning properly.  I'm also starting to worry if I'm ever going to get better.  I had that 2 week period a while back where I felt completely normal and content, then it went away and I've been struggling since.  its very discouraging.  I may be discounting the effect of coming off the klonopin though.  i wish there was a way to know. 


#643 invalidusername

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 05:11 PM

Hey Liz!!  **IUN frantically waves**

 

The whole IBS thing is a lot more common than I thought. My friends little girl of 12 has just been diagnosed with it! The doctor put it down to the stress of the COVID stuff. Since when can 12 year olds suffer from stress?! Just shows you what this world is coming to. When I was 12, I was running around my local neighbourhood with friends, learning the piano, lifting up girls skirts and running away.. the usual. There was no stress in life at all!!

 

MX - you are right, you cannot discount the klon withdrawal. This can still take a while, and again, the whole COVID world we are living in is going to have an effect as it is there in the background all the time. If it can give a 12 year old girl the shits, then just think what it will do for us adults who have the weight of the world to carry on our shoulders...


#644 Mxpro32

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 08:43 PM

If it can give a 12 year old girl the shits, then just think what it will do for us adults who have the weight of the world to carry on our shoulders...


Lmao!!

#645 frog

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 06:48 PM

omg FH I would never be able to keep such a restricted diet! That's part of why this is so horrible. I love going to restaurants and eating all sorts of food. Since November I wasn't able to do this because of the adrenaline/anxiety/panic attacks, and now it's because of the shutdown as well as being put on this super restrictive elimination diet with the FODMAPs. I've been willing to do it temporarily to get things to calm down and get them under control but I really don't think I could give it all up forever. I'd be very very sad. 

What medication have you taken and did it help? I think for now my doc wants to see if we can just get things under control through diet alone. The only thing she recommended was taking Imodium. I tried taking the 1 gel cap but it stops me up for DAYS. I tried doing half of a tablet every other day but it didn't work all that well and also gave me persistent nausea...

 

IUN so sad to hear about this girl and her problems. I can see how this major disruption would still be stressful for some kids even if they're not burdened by things like worrying about jobs, etc. Our neighbors have a 3 year old whose pandemic-related stress has manifested as a slight stutter. Apparently this is common. Obviously this 3 year old understands even less than a 12 year old about the implications of this but still her normal routine is disrupted and she probably senses the shift in mood around the house too. 

 

Crazy times. 


#646 fishinghat

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 07:46 AM

I took dicyclomine (prescription) which helped some and also took Imodium which seemed to be more effective BUT if not careful I would become constipated. Life can be a challenge, that is for sure.


#647 frog

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 08:03 PM

FH what dosing strategy did you find helped the best with Imodium? If I take 1 gel cap I'm constipated for minimum several days, sometimes 5 or more. When I took half a tab every other day it constipated me for about a day and then it was worse than ever the following day. It also may or may not have contributed to some nausea. I'm worried if I take half a tab daily I'll just be consistently constipated 


#648 fishinghat

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 06:53 AM

I took 1/2 tablet every day or two but had to watch it close. You seem to be really sensitive to it. The only suggestion I have is just break up a tablet and only take a few grains of it. Sorry, I wish I could help more.


#649 Mxpro32

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:03 PM

I've been doing a little better lately. I'm even sleeping good.  I still don't have much motivation or drive, but I'm not as depressed as I was, and I've seen glimpses of creativity.  I've noticed its not just my mood that goes up and down, my personality and the way I see things change too.  like I struggle with what I should be thinking or doing a lot of the time.  I think a lot of that is the lack of intrinsic motivation though.  when nothing drives you forward in any way, and you can't get motivated to make and achieve goals, the void is uncomfortable.  its better than depressed, but its uncomfortable and weird.  I'm trying not to get lost in the weeds thinking about things too much or worrying about my progress too much.  I'm down to .25mg klonopin at night.  I feel like the drops aren't effecting me as much any more.  I'm tempted to go a little faster and see how it goes.  


#650 frog

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:39 PM

Progress is progress!

That all sounds positive. Glimpses of creativity means more is around the corner :)

I feel you about the mood swings affecting perspectives and outlooks though for sure. It's almost like most days my rational brain is keyed in now and helping me see life as it is, but some days it's like it decides to go on vacation and I'm full of doubt about when my future will ever look like it once did again. More and more I'm feeling optimism or even excitement (!) about things that will eventually happen (my mom finally being able to come visit us out here in California, taking that mega belated honeymoon trip to Japan next year hopefully) but it still feels very fragile when I have those days where the IBS isn't cooperating, or my brain feels like crap, or oh god sometimes both. Those days everything makes me anxious and the self-doubt settles in (I won't be able to show my mom around in the way I want to because my IBS won't cooperate, we won't be able to go to Japan because I'll be way too anxious to go on such a major trip, etc etc) The thoughts themselves are bad enough and then I tend to pile guilt on myself for still feeling this way too. 

 

It was easier to feel motivated when there were small things to look forward to throughout the days: cocktails with friends, a nice dinner out with my husband, etc. I've definitely struggled with this in the lockdown, feeling like there's nothing to look forward to that doesn't feel like it's months and months away. Over the last week we spent time with two different friends outside in the park and both those times I felt so free and normal and like my old self again. I feel like it lifted my mental happiness meter so so much. The hard part is keeping it there in the absence of a constant flow of these kinds of interactions. 


#651 fishinghat

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 08:48 AM

Great mxpro. like frog said...more to follow.


#652 Mxpro32

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 04:31 PM

I made a bigger drop on the klonopin this week.  I went from .25mg to .15mg.  I'm having more anxiety, but its manageable.  I'm having pretty restless sleep.  I'm just ready to be off.  I've been talking to one of my best friends who has been taking 1mg klonopin for years, and I can tell he thinks the withdrawals are in my head.  even the cymbalta stuff I can tell he thinks i'm being dramatic or something.  he hasn't said as much, but he says stuff like "yeah, just keep going slow.  even if its all in your head its working".  thats been one of the frustrating things about this whole "adventure", trying to tell friends what i've been going through and they belittle it or says stuff like "oh, I think everybody experiences that".  I was explaining to a friend how people think they are helping when they say stuff like that, but its not because it feels belittling for them to say that what I'm going through is just normal life stress and anxiety.  he scolded me for "downplaying other peoples problems" and "you don't know what other people are going through to say this is worse".  this has been extremely profound.  they just don't get it, and I think i'm done trying to convince them how hard its been.  I don't know why they won't understand that this hit like a ton of bricks 2 weeks after I quit the drug.  its not a coincidence, and its not something normal people experience or can understand.  sure, life is no picnic for anyone, and I'm not downplaying others struggles, but this is chemically induced and clearly something different.  I have dealt with a ton of tragedy, family drama, anxiety and depression in my life (thus the reason I was taking cymbalta).  these withdrawals have taken me to depths of pain, fear, depression and anxiety that I had no idea existed.  to make it worse, I couldn't even sleep to get a little break from the misery.  for the first time in my life I understood why people commit suicide, and the reaction most people have when I share with them is to tell me its no big deal and everybody goes through that.  its kind of unbelievable.   

 

on the other hand, I'm pretty hard on myself as well.  its been 8 months or so, and I still beat myself up all the time for not being farther along and functioning at a higher level.  I should really be thanking god I'm where I'm at now and not still in the pits of hell.  the fear is that this mild depression, anxiety, and lack of motivation is as good as it gets.  I'm back to not sleeping more than 4-5 hours a night before waking up with restless, anxious energy.  that was before the last dose drop, but no doubt that has made it worse.  I actually had my good sleep back for a week or so, but no more.  I even slept til 11 am last week.  I didn't think that was possible.  I'm really hoping I'll be significantly better once I'm done with this klonopin taper. 

 

fh, do you anticipate extended withdrawals once I'm completely off? 


#653 fishinghat

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 04:37 PM

Ignorance is the largest epidemic.

 

No, if you continue to go slow then the last drop should only result in 2 or 3 weeks of added anxiety. Slow wins the race.


#654 Mxpro32

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 04:43 PM

I'm starting to get pretty depressed again too.  this always happens when my sleep starts going to crap.  not sure if the depression causes the insomnia or the other way around. 


#655 frog

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Posted 04 June 2020 - 10:29 PM

I should really be thanking god I'm where I'm at now and not still in the pits of hell.  the fear is that this mild depression, anxiety, and lack of motivation is as good as it gets. 

 

I feel this so hard too. The anxiety I'm dealing with now is manageable, but it still sucks. Some days it's hardly been there and others it's back with a vengeance. And I still get nervous that this is my new forever reality. I guess it's dumb to think about it too much because it's not like I can do anything about it but give it more time and see, but it's hard!


#656 fishinghat

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Posted 05 June 2020 - 08:06 AM

It will get better, honest.


#657 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 04:34 PM

I've really been feeling the effects of the klonopin withdrawal since I've been taking bigger drops. my heart rate feels faster, I've got anxiety and tightness in my chest, and I'm sleeping 4-5 hours again with restless energy.  its all still manageable though so I'm ok with it to get off quicker.  I had a dentist appointment today and my blood pressure was elevated, which i've never had before.  could that be due to the withdrawals?  my blood pressure was 163 over 97


#658 fishinghat

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 04:39 PM

That is way too high. If that is from your withdrawal (possible) then you need to pause and let it come back down. You will get there but you also need to take care of yourself too. 


#659 invalidusername

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 06:48 PM

Agreed - high blood pressure and pulse is found during benzo withdrawal for sure, factor in the anxiety of the dentist and this could well explain it, but as Hat said, you need to watch your drop as you don't want that BP for too long. Nothing to worry short term as the heart muscle can withstand phenomenal pressures (assuming not underlying condition), but all the same, you need to keep an eye on it.

 

For the sake of 30 bucks, it is worth getting a monitor for home use.


#660 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 06:55 PM

I never have high blood pressure, even at the dentist or even going into surgery, so I imagine its the benzo withdrawal.  should I go back up in dose a little, or just ride this out?  no wonder I can feel my chest pounding with each beat.  





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