1191 replies to this topic

[Mxpro32]

Not sure. Depends if I'm going to drop 10% a week, or if I drop .1 mg a week. I'd prefer not to drag on forever so I'm going to try and drop .1mg a week.

[frog]

Sorry you're still feeling mostly flat. Hopefully getting off the klonopin will help.

 

I'm feeling a lot more overall positivity, motivation, creativity, etc. But it still waxes and wanes, which bugs me. I'll have a stretch where all of those things are pretty high and then I can feel it turn and every day feel a bit more anxious, a bit more worried etc. Physically I'm still seeing weird side effects too, like my blood sugar is still pretty messy. I'll randomly get woozy/lightheaded, but feel better if I eat something sugary right away. And my sleep is still not right. I still have to take Seroquel/Gabapentin every night to make sure I fall asleep. I'm hoping to be done with the beta blockers in a couple weeks and then start in on the Seroquel or the Gabapentin. But I'm nervous that I won't be able to fall asleep without them and I'll be back to those wonderful sleepless anxious nights of many months ago. 

 

Hat or IUN any advice? 

Also as far as potential side effects from a beta blocker taper, do you have any advice? I know lightheadedness is possible since that can be directly related to blood pressure changes, but anything else? 

[fishinghat]

l
l the side effects of beta-blocker withdrawal are related to bp increase. Lightheadedness, heartpounding, faster pulse and of course a higher blood pressure. If any of this gets too much just pause until stable and then start weaning again at a slightly lower rate.

[frog]

Gotcha. I think throughout the course of taking the BBs I've been experiencing trouble with breathing (having to take a lot of really deep breaths), lightheadedness/feelings of being very woozy, tiredness. I paid less attention to them for much of the time because with all of the nightmare that withdrawal brought on I figured it was all just related to that. I'm WAY better now but these things are still lingering in some form so I'm thinking the BBs have something to do with it. I guess my expectation was that I would see things improve as I tapered down, but maybe that's incorrect and I won't see changes until I'm completely off. Thoughts? 

[fishinghat]

"but maybe that's incorrect and I won't see changes until I'm completely off. Thoughts?"

Correct, maybe not until you have been off 6 to 8 months.

[invalidusername]

MX,

 

A nice post from you - and great to see that you are finding perspective in the whole thing. Very good point about how to separate between what is going on around the world and the "real" situation. I am also starting to feel that life has become muted as you put it. Two and a half weeks into lockdown and it is getting difficult. I am quite sure that things would be different in my circumstances if it wasn't for the virus as I have also found that enthusiasm has dried up. I think you need to have a careful balance with the drop at the present time - as much as you want to be off and feel more emotion, but what is going on is certainly having its effect on people, whether or not they suffer with mental health, so just be careful...

 

Frog,

 

Hat was there with the answer on the BB front. Very characteristic of a withdrawal. People can underestimate quite what they do, not necessarily the impact. Compared to other meds, the withdrawal should be quite tame, but as Hat said, still treat the same as any other WD insomuch that if you feel too much at once, hold back. 

[Polly38]

Hi Frog

I wouldn't be surprised if it was still the withdrawal from Cymbalta that you kept feeling the need to take a deep breath. I'm exactly the same. I have had that withdrawal symptom since I stopped, although it is starting to get better. I am just over 5 months off so, hopefully, it will fade in time. How long have you been off?

I started 10mg of Amitriptyline 6 weeks ago for the nerve pains I was having in my stomach. I'm convinced that was a withdrawal symptom, and it has worked for that in the main. I don't want to stay on it too long and as we are in lockdown for the foreseeable future, I figure this is the best time to start reducing it as I'm working from home. Fingers crossed it's all OK🤞.

I hope everyone is staying safe and keeping well.

[frog]

FH it can take 6 months to stop having side effects from a beta blocker???

 

Polly my opinion is that the beta blocker is causing the slight breathlessness for me. It's gone down a lot as my anxiety/adrenaline has improved over the last few months, with only occasionally having to take a deep breath throughout the day, but I don't remember having this issue at all in the early days of all this. And shortness of breath is commonly listed as a side effect particularly if you take a non-cardioselective type of BB like I am. They block adrenaline receptors all over including the lungs rather than just the heart. Supposedly those kinds of beta blockers are not really advised for people with asthma and lung conditions. But there are newer, cardio selective beta blockers now which don't act on your lungs supposedly, but that is not the kind I take. 

[fishinghat]

Oh, no. I thought you were taalki9ng about Cymbalta. It should only take 2 to 3 weeks. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[frog]

No worries I had a feeling

Currently I'm at 10mg AM and 10 at PM. Next week I plan to cut in half to 5mg each and the following week off completely. I was really hoping to see the breathlessness go away as I'm dropping, but I guess 10mg is probably still enough of a dose to have effects on my system. I'll just have to wait and see what happens next week then!

 

One interesting thing that's been newer to me is I've been having a lot more dreams especially this week. Annoyingly they're mostly anxious or stressful dreams. I've read online that beta blockers cross the blood brain barrier and studies have shown that they can have negative effects on sleep: like insomnia, more waking up in the night, nightmares, etc. Glad to be getting off them!

[invalidusername]

There has been a big thing about anxious dreams ever since the lockdowns began all over the world. Mine were right on cue. They have caused me no end of issues... 

[frog]

I don't know if it's due to the sedative effects of Seroquel or what, but I find it difficult to shake the nightmares off and fall back asleep when I wake up mid-dream. if I just try to close my eyes again I go right back into the dream and right back into being super scared. I have to physically get up and then get back in bed. 

[invalidusername]

Mine aren't nightmares exactly, I just happen to find anything I dream about very stressful. I wake up feeling very anxious or very afraid. This has been happening for days now and today it got too much and I had my first seizure in about 8 months. 

 

It's not been a good day. 

 

People really do not understand quite what this lockdown thing is doing to people like us - especially when you have a partner who is similarly afflicted.

[fishinghat]

"I have to physically get up and then get back in bed."

That is what my therapist said to do when I was having that problem with my nervous breakdown. would get up, walk the length of the house and back and lay back down and return to sleep (normally lol).

[invalidusername]

"I have to physically get up and then get back in bed."

 

Does going to the John count? If so, I do that, and still pick up where I left off. I would have a walk but then the neighbour downstairs would kick off....

[frog]

I think anything counts. I didn't even get out of bed this time. I just got up in bed and took off my sweatshirt because I was burning up, and it was enough

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, the social isolation from friends and family, and not being able to go anywhere to do anything, like riding my dirt bike is starting to take a toll. I'm fighting some depression and loneliness at times.

To make it worse, just found out my English bulldog is dying of lung cancer. She was our first baby before our real babies. She loved our babies when they came and is a real member of our family. I haven't told the kids yet. It's pretty bad timing. My wife and I are pretty upset. Having real emotions has been nice, but I'm ready to try out some of the better ones too.

[invalidusername]

Ah man... sorry to hear that. Never an easy time with pets and children. To a certain age, regardless of human or animal, death is a death to children (and as it is for some adults), but it can be very hard for children to let go. 

[frog]

Sorry Mxpro that's a lot of stuff all at once. 

 

I think we're all feeling the isolation and loneliness. I know I am. This week has been particularly tough. Could be coincidence or could be because I'm tapering the beta blockers. I've just been tired, lethargic, more depressed than prior weeks. I've definitely had days in the past few weeks where I felt genuinely happy and upbeat and optimistic but this week has just felt gloomy. 

 

The way I posed it to my therapist a couple weeks ago is that for 5 months I felt isolated and watched the world go by around me, but I at least knew it was out there and I was marching toward being able to rejoin it, and just when I thought I finally mostly conquered this, the world shut down and now I'm back where I started. It's definitely not easy to continue to feel like time is being wasted as it just passes by. 

[invalidusername]

My goodness Frog - you have got it spot on - a real way with words.

 

It has all hit me this week to. Depression such as I haven't felt for around 8 months today. Three weeks in isolation is clearly my limit.

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, we spent so much time in suspended animation, trying to be patient and practicing acceptance, only to have the world come to a halt for an indefinite period of time, requiring us to practice yet more patience while dealing with the loneliness of isolation, and economic uncertainty. It's been trying. I'm trying not to wait until everything is perfect to start living.

[fishinghat]

I guess I am a lucky person. I have always been a loner and spending hours just setting back and thinking is not unusual for me. when my wife takes vacation and goes and see her family I have no issue staying home alone for those 2 or 3 weeks. Being alone is so easy for me and it always has. Definitely an introvert. I do sincerely sympathize with those who need that social contact ona regular basis. Hang in there.

[invalidusername]

Absolutely - and thanks Hat. My only addition to that is that my wife suffers with bad depression and OCD, so being around her 24/7 leaves me with a real problem. As much as I love her, it is too much. It is already announced that an extension will be in place for the foreseeable future here in the UK ahead of Monday's deadline. 

[Mxpro32]

Well, I’ve been on the lower dose of Klonopin for a week or so, and the anxiety has come back down, but Every time I stabilize and the anxiety comes down, I start getting that drugged feeling felt strongest in my stomach and chest, and I get slightly depressed.  It’s the same drugged feeling I got when I took half a pill in the morning that one time.  Im thinking maybe I should make smaller dose drops more often, as the anxiety of a drop is uncomfortable, but so is the drugged feeling I get when I stabilize.  I think I’m down to .45mg from 1mg.  A 1mg pill weighs .2 g, and the portion I’m taking weighs .09 g.  

[frog]

Somehow all of these different meds are a nightmare to come off of. This is what I'm realizing. I'm tapering propranolol right now (which my doctor assured me shouldn't have any problem because my dose is much lower than someone who takes it for true heart/blood pressure control) and I still feel like I'm seeing things flare up so I'm trying to take it slow. Then I tried to reduce my dose of Seroquel and didn't sleep for two nights and my anxiety was the highest it's been a while. Had to retreat. It's such a vicious cycle!

[Mxpro32]

I think the Cymbalta withdrawal complicates everything else.  I still can’t drink any alcohol or coffee without getting bad anxiety.  I try a beer once in a while and I always end up with anxiety.  

[fishinghat]

Slow. slow and slower. Hang in there guys. You will be fine.

[Mxpro32]

Hat. Do you think the alcohol intolerance is from the cymbalta or the benzo withdrawal. Not that I need to drink alcohol, 8ts just interesting.

[invalidusername]

Not wanting to speak on behalf of Hat, but in reality, it could be as he likes to say, the flip of a coin.

 

Both have the capacity to reduce alcohol tolerance, and withdrawal in both cases suggest that alcohol should be avoided.

[fishinghat]

In addition …

List of known actions of ethanol
Ethanol has been reported to possess the following actions in functional assays at varying concentrations:[54]
GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulator (primarily of δ subunit-containing receptors)[66]
NMDA receptor negative allosteric modulator[58][66]
Increased levels of dopamine and endogenous opioids in the mesolimbic pathway, secondary to other actions[63][66]
AMPA receptor negative allosteric modulator[58]
Kainate receptor negative allosteric modulator[58]
Glycine receptor positive allosteric modulator[55]
Nicotinic acetylcholine receptor positive allosteric modulator[56][73]
5-HT3 receptor positive allosteric modulator
Glycine reuptake inhibitor[74]
Adenosine reuptake inhibitor[75]
L-type calcium channel blocker
GIRK channel opener
Wiki