1191 replies to this topic

[Mxpro32]

My counselor had a quote from a baseball player, I believe yogi Berra. "People don't boo nobodies". This particular friend is always looking for a way to be better than me, because he thinks I'm somebody. Made a lot sense. Now it's up to me to quit casting pearls before swine.

[Mxpro32]

Another night with a 4 am wake up call. It's not just the early waking and lack of sleep, it's the restless uneasy, depressed feeling when I wake up. My mood actually turned out pretty good yesterday, but today I'm pretty depressed and exhausted. I get pretty unstable depressed and angry with the sleep problems, so Hopefully this stage of the ride doesn't last too long. Thanks for listening to me complain.

[invalidusername]

It the mornings which is usually the last thing to go - certainly was for me.

 

I still have the occasionally iffy morning as my sleep is affected by stress. It all seems to come out in my subconscious when I am sleeping. For example, I have been pampering my car all week, making her all pretty, and it worries me that some idiot will reverse into it as soon as I take it off my parents drive when it is safely ensconced at the moment. So last nights dream was just that. Car was written off. I woke up in such a state! 

 

Again, these things can come back every now and again. We still have neurons firing together for a while after things have started to sort out. They is nothing we can do about it short of getting lobotomised! But the less they occur, and the less attention we give it, the easier it will become. But make no mistake, just like you will get downs out of nowhere, the proverbial "up" is already waiting for you.

[frog]

Might be something here to explain: https://www.drdebora...s-wake-you-3-am

 

Dunno if this is hokey science or what, wish I did. But if this doc is on point then it's possible the chronic stress has got your hormone releases like cortisol out of whack, and it's increasing too early as opposed to closer to morning time. So your whole circadian rhythm is out of whack. Probably as stress levels drop, the hormones will fall back in line. 

[fishinghat]

Not hokey science. This is all part of the stress cycle. With stress we often focus on adrenaline which is the primary issue but cortisol, serotonin, melatonin and the hormones are all effected by this chronic adrenaline issue as well as these changes becoming a conditioned response as well. It is no wonder that the body takes forever to stabilize.

 

As a wise man once said....Time and patience. 

[invalidusername]

I've just Googled "Time and patience site:cymbaltawithdrawal.com"

 

176 results

 

You've said that phrase 176 times Hat  

[fishinghat]

Holy Cow.  That is too many. I may have to change to "Patience and time."   lol

[Mxpro32]

Might be something here to explain: https://www.drdebora...s-wake-you-3-am

Dunno if this is hokey science or what, wish I did. But if this doc is on point then it's possible the chronic stress has got your hormone releases like cortisol out of whack, and it's increasing too early as opposed to closer to morning time. So your whole circadian rhythm is out of whack. Probably as stress levels drop, the hormones will fall back in line.

This describes my experience exactly. Especially before I started taking the Klonopin. I would jolt awake in a panic. Now I wake up squirming and uneasy feeling. What can I do to help this? It also explains why intense exercise wipes me out. I wonder if it explains my sensitivity to caffeine and alcohol? I'm more sensitive to my Ritalin as well. I had crazy anxiety until my dose was lowered. Kinda makes me want to taper lower on the Ritalin.

[frog]

FH if we get trapped in this stress cycle as part of withdrawal, particularly with the conditioned response aspect, how does the body eventually settle back to normal? If you condition the response wouldn't it just stay that way continuously? 

[fishinghat]

Frog, you hit the million dollar question on the head. A conditioned reflex CAN be undone but it is very difficult. A good therapist can teach techniques to off set the extra adrenaline and such but they require a great deal of practice. These must be practiced so frequently that you recondition yourself.

 

I will give you a couple examples.

 

My therapist had me develop a 'key word'. Because my issue was anxiety I chose the words 'slow down'. The words used do not matter only the effect it brings. Every, and I mean every, time I was anxious I would close my eyes, take a deep breath and tell myself repeatedly 'slow down'. I would then open my eyes and continue with what I was doing but at a much slower pace. At first it was very difficult to go slowly, almost in slow motion but in time (a couple years) it became a new conditioned response. All I had to do was close my eyes and say slow down and I would settle right down.

 

My wife added a good step to this. When ever we would be out about town I would start getting anxious and all she would have to do watch gently touch my leg and I would immediately go into slow motion or stop and take a break. It took a lot of practice but it became instinctive and still works until this day.

 

 

When I started my therapy I asked the dr how long it would take to get to get effective with the changes on my behavior? She said "How many years did it take to develop this level of anxiety. That is how many years it will take to reverse the conditioned response."  She was right.

[frog]

So even with the stress brought on by withdrawal, it doesn't just eventually go away on its own? We now have this permanently unless we do something about it? 

[Mxpro32]

Crazy thing is, with all the meditating and mindfulness I've been practicing, I've got my anxiety pretty well under control. I don't have racing anxious thoughts. The times when I have had anxiety recently, I still slept fine. I tend to wake up at 4 am during times when I'm depressed. I'm feeling pretty depressed again today. I can't sort out if it's the lack of sleep aggravating the depression though. It kinda feels like it.

[frog]

I don't even know what I feel anymore. I think the biggest thing I still feel is agitation. Sometimes there are anxious thoughts, and I can feel myself starting to wind up, which is something that used to happen to me before too.

 

But there's also just this underlying feeling of discomfort and kind of agitation that's more constant. I guess now I'm freaking out that that is a conditioned permanent response and will not go away? 

[invalidusername]

A conditioned response must be learned, and therefore it is perfectly possible for the same response to be unlearned.

[Mxpro32]

You'll be fine. That's still withdrawals. I'm ahead of you and I'm still have issues apparently. I stabilized pretty good, and then I started getting visits from ghosts of Christmas past. First the bad anxiety paid a week visit after being gone for a month, and now the insomnia and severe depression are back. I hadn't struggled with depression this bad for a couple months. It's discouraging to say the least. I'm trying to stay optimistic and look at the big picture, but with some of my worst symptoms coming back with strong intensity it's tough.

[frog]

I'm definitely really sad to hear that you've been getting all these recurrences. I hope it means that once you're through this tunnel that even better days than before are ahead. 

I think the agitation I'm describing is tension. I just feel very tense most of the time. Many times over the past week I've caught myself gritting my teeth. I'm wondering if it's stress related. My husband asked if it's possible that my stress response is still so fragile that even pretty minor stressors are a trigger and are just snowballing. There have been a couple somewhat stressful things going on at work: some tension between a few members of my team, and upcoming vendor meetings that I have to put together some decks for and present out. Then on top of that there's all this coronavirus stuff and the Democratic primaries have also kind of been putting me through the emotional wringer. 

Today I came home crying for the first time in 3-4 weeks. It kind of felt like all the tension had built up so much that it finally bubbled over. 

 

I know it's been said many times on this forum that the stress response does fade over time, but is there anything to do in the meantime to not get myself in another stress loop? These particular stressors are kind of hard to avoid... 

[fishinghat]

Your withdrawal will continue to improve but once stabilized patients tend to be more sensitive to stress in the future. That is where meditation, conditioning, coping skills and such come in to play. It is important to realize that as you get older these neurotransmitters become harder to control and we naturally become more vulnerable to stress and emotions.  

[Mxpro32]

The stress sensitivity is permanent? I tried staying up till 12:30 and I still woke up at 4 with an anxious feeling in my chest. I felt like I was one stressful thought away from a panic attack. Like a strange chemical feeling similar to anxiety but different. Then I'm not anxious during the day, just super depressed. I wish I knew if my concerta, trazadone, or Klonopin are playing any part in this or if it's just withdrawals. I feel like the Klonopin is causing emotional numbing cause I haven't been having the positive emotions that were making this whole process worth it. And now I'm not even sleeping either so the Klonopin seems to not be helping at all. My other thought is my concerta causing the sleep troubles, and if I tapered off that maybe I wouldnt need the Klonopin to sleep. I've been waiting to stabilize before making any changes, and I thought I was close, but lately it's like all hell is breaking loose and I'm destabilizing

[fishinghat]

I did not explain that very well. Your current stress sensitivity will decrease by lets say 95% BUT you will still be a little more sensitive in the long run. With good coping skills you should be able to handle it and do well.

[Polly38]

Mxpro and Frog, I can completely relate to everything you're saying! My stress response is zero at the moment- and it's not just stressful situations- I feel tense nearly every minute of every day, I have that anxious feeling inside my chest, and that's where the pain is you have probably heard me harping on about🙄.


I do agree with what FH says - that we have to unlearn this behaviour/anxiety. I am currently following a programme called 'A Little Peace of Mind'. It works on the 3 Principles, discovered by Sydney Banks (Google it). You just sit with the anxiety and pay it no attention- to retrain your mind. It takes a lot of practice (but actually, there is nothing to do) There are lots of podcasts, a Facebook page etc. It's early days, but I am starting to see chinks of light. I am also trying a low dose of Amitriptyline for the pain, and it will, hopefully, make me a bit calmer. I'll keep you posted on that though.

It is a horrible feeling and very hard to explain to someone who has never experienced it. Praying for peaceful times ahead for us all soon!

[Polly38]

I also think it has left me with asthma😥. I can't tolerate strong perfume smells and my husband has just lit the woodburner and I can really feel it on my chest and had to use my inhaler 😤. I never had this problem before. It's a wicked drug!

[frog]

That's what I'm feeling: just ever present tenseness. It's not caused by any single stressful event, I think it's kind of like a much much milder but still constant physical preparation for fight or flight. Is this still withdrawal and will continue to wind down over time?

For now I'm going to go back to doing daily meditation to see if it helps release some of the tension. And maybe try doing some of the muscle relaxations. 

[fishinghat]

It is still early in our recovery.

[frog]

So... is that a yes?

I got really worked up yesterday because recently I've felt like things have really stabilized overall. I'm not seeing sudden ups and downs. Things are pretty steady day to day and even week to week but there's just that constant tension that's keeping me feeling uneasy and in a slightly overall anxious state. So my fears have been that I've hit the recovery ceiling and I'm now permanently going to be in this slightly heightened state. I feel a bit like a balloon where I'm floating along in this tense state but I'm susceptible to even one tiny jab. I guess I'm looking for assurance that this is still some form of adrenaline imbalance and will continue to lower with more time. 

[fishinghat]

It will continue to improve but slower as time goes on. Most achieve near completion of recovery in 1 to 2 years, Little but some recovery after that. BUT having said that remember that some do not even have withdrawal symptoms so variability goes without saying.

[Mxpro32]

I had the weirdest thing happen this morning. I slept like crap again and was exhausted and depressed. Then all of a sudden it felt like I took a stimulant, like it feels when I take my Ritalin. I had an antsy energy surge, I wasn't sleepy any more, and I had to use the bathroom like when my Ritalin hits or like when I used to drink a cup of coffee. This all happened without taking my medication or any stimulant. So strange. The depression changed to anxiety which hung around all day, but I actually had a decent day and even laughed some in spite of pretty intense anxiety.

[Mxpro32]

I'm having a hard time believing I'm still going to get better. It was easier when I believed I was headed to a better state of being. I feel fearful all the time, I'm waking up several times a night with fear. I'm imagining losing everything all the time, and I'm too depressed to work and do anything about it. I'm not in that painful, drag your heart into hell depression, more the "what's the point" and "I'm never going to feel normal and life is way too hard" depression. I kinda feel like the Klonopin is numbing my emotions. I don't get that glimmer of feeling real emotion that would keep me going. I feel like it might be fueling the apathy and depression, and I'm not sleeping anyway. I want to get off. Is that a terrible idea to taper off now? I don't feel like I'm stabilizing anymore and I think it's hurting me.

I woke up at 2am last night, fell back to sleep around 3, the was up again at 5. Lack of sleep destroys my morale. If Klonopin isn't helping me sleep, why take it

[fishinghat]

"If Klonopin isn't helping me sleep, why take it"

Because the only other option is to stop taking it and deal with another bad withdrawal.

Sucks.

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, I feel like it's taken away the only good thing about this withdrawal process, feeling things. I feel numbed out and like I'm stalled at numb apathy and not getting any better. If I try tapering and have bad withdrawals, I can just pause or slow down right?

I read this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5852433/

It sounds like the benzo interferes with your ability to feel and subsequently your ability to work through trauma. It prevents the benefits of therapy as well. The study shows all sorts of other ways it just makes issues worse. This is what I feel is happening since I love been on it a while. I felt like I was getting to the point in my withdrawal where I was feeling and dealing with underlying issues and making progress. Now I just feel numbed out and hopeless. I might be willing to go through more misery if it means getting off this crap and closer to being healthy. What do you think?

[fishinghat]

Well said and true about the benzos. It is a shame that drs give them out like candy. The clinic I go to will not prescribe Xanax or valium anymore and the other benzos only in emergencies. I wish more places were like that.  Most drs know that when a patient comes in suffering deep psychological issues they can just write a script for benzos and wham the problems are over as far as they are concerned.

 

What is your current dosage and  frequency?