1191 replies to this topic

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, it couldn't have been nicer weather. It's actually really nice at home right now too. I woke up from a nightmare last night and I feel my mood trying to turn. I'm sure it won't be as bad as before though.

We don't get snow here, we have to drive a couple hours to see it so we think it's awesome. Took our kids to see snow for the first time just after Christmas.

[Mxpro32]

The last 2 nights I've woken in the morning with a strong sense of fear and restlessness. Not anxiety, but fear, as if I'm in a nightmare but I'm awake. It lasts for a good portion of the day. I also feel this pressure to cry building from within my body. Not even necessarily a bad cry. It feels like it could be a happy one but I've been pushing it down. I should probably let it out. I knew the good mood stretch I was going to end at some point so I'm trying not to be disappointed. I've gone into "looking for the next biggest threat" mode.

[frog]

Despite trying to practice acceptance of things as they are, I couldn't help but be jealous of your long stretch of great days! What a treat for you though. I hope I get there myself someday soon.

I had a tougher week. The anxiety just wouldn't break and it was pretty much all neutral to neutral-bad days, having to push through anxiety to do anything and feeling frustrated at the lack of good days. Yesterday I finally had a very nice day, my husband and I went to the zoo and it was fun with almost no anxiety. In the evening we went down to our neighbors' and hung out for a couple hours and had dinner. It was a pretty great day overall but after having a stretch of 7 days of sleeping pretty much through the night, last night I barely slept at all so now I feel crummy I ordered the book you recommended hoping to help work on my patience and acceptance. 

 

I know exactly the feelings you're describing though. Especially pushing down the crying. My urges to bawl like a baby have diminished in the past couple of weeks but the crying sometimes still comes up out of nowhere. Sounds like you're entering stress mode again, but as we know from experience, it'll eventually end and you'll be on the up again. Hang in there

[Mxpro32]

My day has actually turned around pretty good. I'm slowly getting more "control" as in choosing what to focus on influencing my mood. I decided to take that energy and do some distracting yardwork. Anything to keep me from ruminating on how I feel. I feel like the day could have gone south quick if I indulged the rumination. My brother has caught me doing it a few times and got my head on straight and my mood improved.
Focusing on people I care about helps too. Anything to keep me from just thinking about myself and how crummy I feel. That's good you had a good day at the zoo and with your friends. I think novel experiences and time with people close to you are helpful. I've been really sleepy during the day, which is normal if you don't get enough sleep. I see it as a good sign as I was never sleepy before. I had a cup of regular coffee today without it giving me anxiety. Slowly but surely my chemicals are coming back to normal. And by normal, I mean far better than the numbed lifeless existence I had on cymbalta. I'm sure you will get there too on your own time frame.

[frog]

It really does sound like things are coming back online for you. Even though I'm impatient and I want it all now, now, now, I know I need to exercise more patience. It's tough because I'm the kind of person who always puts pressure on myself and right now I feel pressure to get better so that my husband and I can make new friends and do new things in our new city. We've actually done a good bit of exploring in town all things considered but we've not been able to take any trips away and we haven't been able to do almost any socializing. We don't know hardly anyone here and this doesn't feel like the time to try to work on new friendships, not yet. Every time I have a bad day or worse a bad week, those things just feel even further away i guess.

 

Anyway despite the fact that we've been told on this forum from the beginning that it does eventually even out and get better, it's really hard to believe it when you can't see any light at the end of the tunnel yourself so it's still very exciting to actually witness it in action and see you get better. Do you think that the NAC made the difference or that things were already on the up and up on their own? How many months has it been for you? I cold turkey'd 19 weeks ago, but I don't count the first few weeks because my system didn't totally crash until November, so this week will mark the end of week 16: 4 months. 

[Mxpro32]

I tapered for 4 months and I've been completely off for 5 months. I was already trending in the right direction with several days in a row at times of feeling good, but I feel like the nac really helped. My mood got better, my rumination seems less, and I started getting sleepy on my own. The pace of progress seems to have picked up this last month.

[frog]

So interesting. I did read an article specifically calling out NAC for lessening negative thoughts/ruminations. For now I'm still trying to fight the negative thoughts on my own power. It sure is hard because they seem to creep in from all directions without warning sometimes but some days fighting them off comes more easily. 

 

I'm definitely curious about NAC but a part of me is also determined to not add any more to my pill box.

[fishinghat]

NAC is efficient at increasing BDNF (Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, in the brain which is the bodys compound for nerve repair and growth. So yes it helps heal the nerves faster as well as bringing some relief for the symptoms as the nerves heal. It also increases gaba which the body uses to control nerve chemical reactions like adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, etc. This is important because gaba supplements do not cross the blood brain barrier into the brain . NAC does cross the blood brain barrier and produces the gaba in the brain where it is needed.

 

I would suggest you read the section in the ebook on NAC as well as BDNF. Just do a search for both terms and read all you can.

[frog]

NAC is efficient at increasing BDNF (Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, in the brain which is the bodys compound for nerve repair and growth. So yes it helps heal the nerves faster as well as bringing some relief for the symptoms as the nerves heal. It also increases gaba which the body uses to control nerve chemical reactions like adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, etc. This is important because gaba supplements do not cross the blood brain barrier into the brain . NAC does cross the blood brain barrier and produces the gaba in the brain where it is needed.

 

I would suggest you read the section in the ebook on NAC as well as BDNF. Just do a search for both terms and read all you can.

 

Thanks FH I just read through a bunch of it on the ebook. If I understood correctly Cymbalta is very good at doing what NAC does: particularly increasing BDNF pretty significantly which I guess is part of how it works to alleviate depression and anxiety. And when you take the Cymbalta away especially cold turkey or too quickly, the levels of BDNF suddenly plummet sending your body intro stress mode which potentially also causes the levels to plummet even further. So my question is, if you take NAC to improve the BDNF levels, and eventually decide you don't need to take it anymore, would the levels also not drop causing some withdrawal/stress type symptoms down the line?  

[fishinghat]

Cymbalta does not actually decrease the release of BDNF. A normal amount is released BUT the problem is the bdnf is used up very fast trying to heal the nerves so serum  levels decrease. NAC helps to compensate by increasing bdnf. Once the withdrawal is over you no longer need the NAC to supplement bdnf production. It should be noted the depletion of bdnf has nothing to do with the withdrawal symptoms but only the rate at which you heal.

[frog]

Could be worth a try then if there are no side effects from discontinuing it. Maybe I'll pick some up next time I'm at the store. 

 

I'm having an easier day today with regard to anxiety, there's almost none and I'm not getting the usual pesky negative thoughts and ruminations. On the other hand I feel incredibly tired and kind of just... flat in my mood. I wish it wasn't one or the other

[Mxpro32]

I think I overdid it today. I've been feeling good enough I thought I might work on some business stuff that I've been meaning to get to. I completed some product support materials, researched some potential accessories I've been thinking of adding, which brought me across some competitors offerings. I just started feeling really anxious all of a sudden and started having thoughts about how long can I actually keep running my business successfully, and about how long life is and how it's not likely I can keep my business and life together successfully. I started thinking of all the possible devastating things life might have in store for me. I've been feeling better, but I think I better still take it easy on myself.

[frog]

Yeah it's not too surprising that you would still have an overactive fear response after all of this. It's really crazy how it just comes up seemingly out of nowhere and sets off a cascade of additional anxieties and fears. It still happens to me pretty often. I think the meditation practice is helping me get better at catching myself doing it and try to bring things back to reality. You just want to say "brain, what are you doing? none of this matters right now. right now things are good. if some day my business starts going south, we will deal with it then. but there is no use in worrying about this stuff so prematurely so stop!"

 

Just remember what FH said, that people find they finally come out on the other side at some point and they're like 95% better but they later report that after another 6 months or something they saw yet another 5% improvement. So I imagine these trigger responses will keep smoothing out the more time passes between now and that chronic stress and anxiety state. Probably right now the brain is still pretty used to that stress response so it's still more easily activated. 

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, I need to remember I'm fine now, and I'm not ready to push myself yet. Sometimes it sneaks up on me and I suddenly feel exposed and vulnerable. My emotions are super raw and I feel really scared and anxious, then I started feeling like I needed to cry. I need to keep having patience and compassion with myself. I'm feeling good enough lately where the intensity of this reaction caught me off guard

[Mxpro32]

I'm having a hard time today. I don't see the point of anything and I feel kinda worthless. I have this feeling of impending doom too. When I was feeling better I could see a good future, but today everything seems meaningless and all paths lead to disaster or misery. It's still nowhere near as bad as my darkest moments but still not fun. I guess it's all relative. When you've been feeling great, feeling bad seems a lot worse, especially when it's out of your control. As you heal, you start having more control over your life, thoughts, and emotions right? It's just confusing when you are somewhere in the middle and you aren't sure how much, if any, control you have

[frog]

Exactly how I felt last week after having an easier week before that. Calling this stuff an exercise in patience is truly an understatement. I'm sad to hear your wonderful streak ended, because it made me excited for what's ahead for me, BUT this downtrend will end just as abruptly as it came and you'll be back to good days again in no time. Think about your last stretch of bad days, I'm sure this time will only be that long or even shorter. 

 

From what I understand your different brain parts are normally supposed to work together to combat fear and anxiety that aren't actually troublesome. The logical, reasoning part of the brain is supposed to tell the fear/emotional part that hey, things are actually fine so we don't need this. I think when we are in the worst parts of withdrawal, the fear/emotional parts are very prominent and the logical, reasoning parts for some reason are weakened and the signals aren't quite getting through. I really do believe that as healing happens, and the stress decreases, and the brain reestablishes some circuits that the rational parts of the brain start to regain more and better control to keep the fears and emotions in check again like they used to. You've already seen the strengthening in action when you had that stretch of good days!

[Mxpro32]

Today I'm depressed and having a hard time doing anything or picturing a positive future. Not the same intense painful depression it was before, just a difficulty finding meaning to anything with an undercurrent of sadness. It seems like I get like this after an intense emotionally overwhelming day like yesterday. Like my brain turtles and hides for a bit til the coast is clear. I'm sure as soon as my brain figures out it was nothing and I'm perfectly safe happiness will come out again. As always, it feels like this mood will never end

[frog]

Hang in there mxpro! Whatever you do don't beat yourself up about being sad or even feeling hopeless today. For today that's what it is but the best you can do is not throw the second dart at yourself. Have you heard of the Buddhist idea of the two darts? The first dart we're hit with is unavoidable, the physical or emotional pain. The second dart is self-inflicted. It's the reaction to the first dart: worrying about things you can't control, losing perspective, and dwelling. 

Have you tried doing some meditation today? The brain can only hold one thought at a time. Maybe some meditation will be just distracting enough to set your thoughts back down the right path. 

[Mxpro32]

Thanks. Yeah I was just reading about the darts. That's what meditation helps with. I'm just in a really weird mood. Kinda just blah, and kinda feel like crying but for no reason. Not really too bad considering what I was like not too long ago. Now I need to not let the second darts make it worse than it is. It's my trying to figure out why I feel this way and worrying about continuing to feel this way that's causing the most pain.

[Mxpro32]

Lately, I've been having pretty bad anxiety and picturing all the worst outcomes for my life. A scenario where things go well and I don't end up screwed doesn't exist in my head right now. I've been making the mistake of grappling with these thoughts and trying to assign meaning. I'm pretty sure my withdrawals have activated my amygdala and adrenaline and I need to be patient and quit fighting it. It sucks after having such a good stretch of feeling good, but I need to keep reminding myself what it really is. Not fun though.

[fishinghat]

You have a good comprehension of things going on right now. just realize it is the withdrawal speaking and not you. It will fade soon.

[Mxpro32]

Thanks. I really started questioning it again lately. Like maybe I'm just a depressed anxious person. I'm beyond pessimistic. Back to trying to ignore everything and just be and trust it will be ok.

[Lovey]

Following this conversation. mxpro I can relate to what you are saying. frog great words about the darts. And holding one thought at a time in the mind. Best to replace the negative with a positive. Much easier said than done but not impossible. I am diving deep into learning how to forgive. I will be free yet I believe! A wiser and more compassionate person for having suffered I suppose. I wld never wish these things on anyone but they are the first darts! Xo

[Mxpro32]

Man. My dog barked behind me earlier and my adrenaline spiked. Like crazy fight or flight because my own dog barked. I thought I was through with this phase a while ago.

[Polly38]

I'm getting this too Mxpro - it happens just if someone comes and talk to me unexpectedly in the office. It's unbearable and I hope it stops soon for us both!

I have been off for 3.5 months today

[gail]

Hello Lovey,

The experience of withdrawal and it's suffering, will make you a more compassionate and understanding people. You will learn many things that will be good for your soul. Love!

[Mxpro32]

Is it common for symptoms to return like this after not having them for 4 weeks. Anxiety hasn't been an issue for me and now it's pretty strong. I'm trying to think of supplement changes I've made. I added nac 2 weeks ago, but that seemed to really help until the last few days. I was taking magnesiun, but I stopped when fh said it was a bad idea. Other than that, no changes.

[frog]

I'm obviously not an expert since I'm still going through it all myself, but I don't think it's so surprising for things to return if you trigger the stress response. As we well know, our brains are still very trigger happy with that switch as they continue to do some house cleaning in there. Do your best to not think about it too hard. The sooner you stop worrying about it and piling on the anxiety, the sooner you'll feel better again. And of course I know all too well it's easier said than done. This whole thing is so hard having no real roadmap or milestones to look for to make us feel secure that things are going according to plan. But honestly from everything you've shared here on the forum, I think you're definitely on the right track and things will turn around again real soon. I feel like as long as things still continue to change rather than stay the same, then you can rest easy that the brain is just continuing to do its thing. 

 

For what it's worth, two weeks ago I was really bummed because I had a harder week again with more anxiety and it just wouldn't really let up. Then I had a very good Monday, a decent enough week in between and I had a really nice Saturday too. My husband and I drove an hour away to check out a couple breweries and go to the Charles M Schulz (Peanuts creator) museum. I had pretty much no anxiety that day, it wasn't an internal battle to do anything, it felt very normal, so nice! On the other hand I've also been VERY exhausted almost every day which has been frustrating and my sleep hasn't been as good as a couple weeks ago. OY! Just can't win with this

[Mxpro32]

I’m so happy to hear you had some good days.  Did you enjoy the brewery?  I can’t drink alcohol at all anymore or my anxiety spikes.   I’m sure I’m still headed in the right direction. the return of this symptom and with such intensity feels bizarre.  Especially the jumpiness.  Anxiety would spike before in stressful situations, but now I’m super jumpy.  My wife dropped our kids clothes on the couch next to me from upstairs and internally I responded like a bear is attacking me.  I’m sleeping 6 or so hours on the Klonopin and trans done, but my body feels like it’s vibrating when I wake up.  My heart has been beating hard and irregularly.  The other thing that changed is I pulled a hamstring which led to a pulled back and haven’t been able to exercise.  I was actually getting in pretty good cardio shape.  I was going to race motocross this Sunday for the first time in 15 years because I felt fit enough to do it and my mood had been good, then my injuries happened.  

[invalidusername]

Finally caught up with this thread and it has been a very good read between Frog and MX. If I was here a year ago, I would be all over it. Exactly where I was - 100%. 

 

But bringing things up to the present message from Frog. The stress response is often the last thing to subside. You are all right on the money with your brain becoming very trigger happy during these times. Even 15 months after I stopped Cymbalta, my stress response is very delicate. I am fine until something sets it off and then I really need to put the work in to prevent things going over the top. But yes, it is easier said than done.

 

The issue I find the most difficult is the physical ailments that join in. For the most part, my anxiety is around 75% better - as is my depression. The last three weeks have seen me endure the worst possible building noise - this coming straight after 13 months of the building nextdoor finishing a refurb. This has tipped me over the edge. But my anxiety and depression can take it, but my stress cannot and it results in increased tinnitus, dizziness, fatigue... you name it. THEN, it is a question of stopping that bringing on the anxiety and inevitable depression. You catch it quickly and you are golden, but 4 weeks of getting 4 hours sleep a night won't help you one iota. So, I am fighting a battle at the moment - hence my recent silence on the forum of late.

 

But again, a good read, and lots for others to find support with knowing that we all go through very similar circumstances.