727 replies to this topic

[frog]

Thanks FH and gail!

People on this forum are really the only ones who understand what's happening. 

 

I don't know if the gabapentin on its own is any good for sleep but doc recommended it to take along with the Seroquel to help quiet the anxiety so I can stay asleep for longer. The seroquel on its own was only working for sleep for a few hours. Trazodone was on his list but he was cautious about it since it's an SSRI and he was concerned that I'm really sensitive to serotonin. 

 

I'm so confused with all this adrenaline stuff. It makes a lot of sense that I couldn't sleep if adrenaline was high, but I thought when anxiety was high that means adrenaline is high and my anxiety didn't feel very high last night? 

[invalidusername]

Unfortunately, you can have adrenaline and not feel nervous or anxious. It serves many purposes. It is then that your body is cataloging your reactions. So it will release the chemicals for the adrenaline and you don't react to it, so it knows that there is something wrong. 

 

Think if it like weighing some flour for a cake... You have to get 500gram spot on... you put in 600gm - take a bit away, it is 450gm, you put more in it is 573gm and so on until it comes right.

[fishinghat]

Frog, I just posted an article under Medical Support called "The Gut, Probiotics and PPIs"

You might find it interesting.

[frog]

Thanks FH. It sounded interesting though I admit I didn't fully understand everything. However I also have never taken a PPI or an H2 blocker. But I have taken a lot of antibiotics over the last decade. I definitely believe that my gut bacteria are a bit out of whack but I worry if this is a bad time to try to right that ship if there's potential for additional side effects from taking probiotics. 

[frog]

Unfortunately, you can have adrenaline and not feel nervous or anxious. It serves many purposes. It is then that your body is cataloging your reactions. So it will release the chemicals for the adrenaline and you don't react to it, so it knows that there is something wrong. 

 

Think if it like weighing some flour for a cake... You have to get 500gram spot on... you put in 600gm - take a bit away, it is 450gm, you put more in it is 573gm and so on until it comes right.

 

IUN what do you mean by it releases adrenaline and you don't react to it? I feel like every time my body sends adrenaline my way I react to it, as in that's when I feel either anxious or super irritable or start crying, etc. Or is the brain able to discern that those are "bad" reactions? I know this is probably not true, but I feel like my brain hasn't learned anything in 3 months about my tolerance or intolerance for whatever it is that it's doing. Because it seems to keep doing it. 

[invalidusername]

OK - the brain regulates the release of adrenaline (and by extension cortisol) in accordance with the levels of norepinephrine from the brain... for the most part. Cymbalta took over the control of the norepinephrine hence the N in SNRI. When you start to come off the Cymbalta, this level of norepinephrine (and serotonin of course) need to come from somewhere else and the production is handed back over to the brain, having previously relying on the drug which blocked the adrenergic  receptors in the brain (that respond to the release of norepinephrine from the medulla - top part of the spinal chord) from doing its own thing AS WELL as the drug producing - otherwise you will end up with too much. With me so far?

 

Member often say they can be sitting still, relaxed as they can be, and then they have a wave of anxiety, nausea or whatever else. This is when the brain is starting to do its own thing. The brain is repairing the adrenergic receptors and the medulla is starting to get the levels right. But it can release on an ad-hoc basis during this time, which is why these members are thinking, why on earth do I feel anxious when there is nothing to feel anxious about. So the discipline is to recognise when this is occurring and try your best not to respond to these times when it happens. If you respond to the over-production then this tells the brain that it is functioning correctly and adjusts the production of norepinephrine accordingly.

 

But even if you cannot help this, it will still return to normal, but just take a bit longer. This is why it can be a viscous circle controlling the anxiety during these time.

 

Hat might have more to add to this, but hope this gets you started. Sorry if the sciencey-bit was a bit too much, but some people find benefit from understanding what is going on in their brainium!

[fishinghat]

Nothing to add to that IUN. Well done.

[frog]

 

Member often say they can be sitting still, relaxed as they can be, and then they have a wave of anxiety, nausea or whatever else. This is when the brain is starting to do its own thing. The brain is repairing the adrenergic receptors and the medulla is starting to get the levels right. But it can release on an ad-hoc basis during this time, which is why these members are thinking, why on earth do I feel anxious when there is nothing to feel anxious about. So the discipline is to recognise when this is occurring and try your best not to respond to these times when it happens. If you respond to the over-production then this tells the brain that it is functioning correctly and adjusts the production of norepinephrine accordingly.

 

But even if you cannot help this, it will still return to normal, but just take a bit longer. This is why it can be a viscous circle controlling the anxiety during these time.

 

 

This definitely sounds like what I'm going through as of about a week or two ago. It's pretty tough to not react at all I have to say. 

 

I'm also experiencing a new, related thing where I'll be doing something passive like say doing some work at the office or on the couch watching tv and I will be fine with no anxiety. And maybe the people on TV are doing something I used to do very easily like get lunch with a friend or something and I'll get a random thought about say how I might get anxious if I were to do that or something like that. And all of a sudden I'll get that chest tightness that kind of takes your breath away and I feel anxiety coming on. It lasts only a minute or two but it can happen a handful of times within a short period of time. 

 

Mxpro had said this once about feeling like you have to be super vigilant with your thoughts. That's kind of how I'm feeling now. Especially if my reactions really affect my healing. I don't want to end up with more anxiety than I started out with because I trained my brain wrong if that makes sense? 

[fishinghat]

Frog, those are called "panic attacks" and are a form of anxiery.

[invalidusername]

Claire Weekes' books all the way for this Frog.

 

They transformed my anxiety.

[frog]

Frog, those are called "panic attacks" and are a form of anxiery.

 

I thought panic attacks were more intense and lasted longer. In my lifetime I've had two panic attacks that I know for sure were that. I took Effexor for a little less than a year and tapered off pretty quickly (this was about a year or so before I started Cymbalta). I didn't have much withdrawal symptoms that time luckily but one night I woke up to a scary panic attack (extra scary because I'd never had one before and didn't know what was happening) and a much smaller one the night after. I never had them again after that. What I'm dealing with now doesn't feel like those panic attacks

 

However the propranolol dampens my physical anxiety response so I guess it's possible more is happening in the body and I'm not feeling it. If they are panic attacks should I be concerned? Is this part of withdrawal or have I created some kind of conditioned panic response? It wasn't really like this prior to the past week and a half or so. If I was experiencing anxiety it felt very similar but would last for longer stretches of the day. 

 

In other news I'm also crying so much more now. Not happy tears. Mostly after dealing with a random wave of anxiety I find myself hysterically crying my eyes out in frustration as I question everything. I don't remember ever crying this much before. My husband says maybe it's sort of a good thing and it's proof that things in the brain are continuing to change? 

[fishinghat]

Panic attacks can last a few minutes or an hour and the intensity varies as well. They are common among all withdrawals. Not to worry, they will fade.

 

It is interesting that you had little problem coming off the Effexor. Effexor has a very similar effect in the body to Cymbalta so usually if you have an easy withdrawal on one then the other one won't be too bad either.

[frog]

Same thought I had when I initially decided to come off Cymbalta and the reason I wasn't TOO concerned. Honestly I even tried to be extra cautious and go much much slower for the taper (except of course the part where I cold turkey'd down from 18mg). Unfortunately I think the difference this time was that of course I'm nearly a decade older and more importantly I was on Cymbalta MUCH longer than I was on Effexor. 

 

Good to know panic attacks are normal and also will go away. 

 

I have to be honest with you guys, I'm still really struggling emotionally with this whole rollercoaster. The process is so painfully slow that I feel like time is passing and I'm still standing still. No matter how much I try to tell myself that there are lots of ups and downs still to come, every time I allow myself to go through the same cycle and get too optimistic. I had a few better days in a row in the second part of last week and I was practically skipping down the street as I was telling my husband how I was going to drop another bead soon and everything was going to get easier from now on. Then of course yesterday out of nowhere things took a turn and as usual it was a hard fall to reality and I ended up spending half the day crying my eyes out, including at my second appointment with my therapist. My husband was practically telling me 'I told you so.' I'm struggling to fully accept how long the process is, and that there's nothing you can really do to change that or hurry it along when I want it to be over so badly. 

[invalidusername]

They were certainly the issue for... whatshername... princess nutella? I forget her name. But she at one stage had a 24 hour panic attack during her withdrawal. Poor girl - but they soon faded for her.

 

Ozgun... that was it - but she has since changed her name to that which I gave her!! Bless her - hope she is doing well.

[frog]

I found her thread. It seems like she got better by taking another AD? It kind of seems like a lot of people on this forum ended up getting better only after taking something else. I have moments of weakness where I consider if that's the best option for me so I don't have to go through this anymore, but it's also kind of terrifying because what if it doesn't do a damn thing and then I'm still stuck on it? 

[fishinghat]

That is the catch 22. I had other heath issues at the same time but the drs tried 6 meds before one worked. I would say the majority if the "success stories" used something else to bail them out BUT when they weaned of the new AD it took another couple of years so they only succeeded in extending there suffering over a longer period of time. Those success stories who stuck with  just a Cymbalta taper suffered more in the short run but healed faster in the long run.

 

Here I am just finishing up 6 YEARS of tapering off the meds they tried  AND I still have around 4 years to taper off the new AD that helped (Zoloft). It is sort of the story darned if I do and darned if I don't.

[frog]

On my easier days I'm on top of the world. I don't need any other ADs and I know that I can keep going. It's only on the tough days that I fall into the pattern of thinking that maybe I should take something else to just make it all stop. But from what you say it sounds like it's really a temporary bandaid. As much as I would kill for a break from all this, I think it's better to get it over with in one go than to spread out the suffering. When I feel my worst and scared that this will never stop, I really lean on the fact that you say that everyone eventually gets better. So thank you immensely for that FH. 

 

I'm so sorry that you're still in the thick of tapering all these drugs, but you are the master of patience so I know you will get through it just fine! And of course as much as you're here for all of us, we are here for you too. 

[fishinghat]

Thank you frog. (It seems dunny to call someone frog. If I did that as a kid I probably would have been smacked, lol.)

 

As you well know, this is all a trial of patience and guess work. A lot of people helped me when I started weaning so I am glad to stick around and return the favor.

[frog]

I have two cats and one of them is named Frog. So in our house we say it a lot

[invalidusername]

darned if I do and darned if I don't.

 

...ain't that the truth

[frog]

Had a pretty good streak last week with 3-4 days where I feel like the adrenaline must have been much lower. For a few nights I was even able to sleep 7-8 hours uninterrupted (with the help of my sleep aids, but still). I even ventured to the grocery store on my own one of the evenings when my husband wasn't home. I'm not typically agoraphobic and during the day at work I don't seem to have trouble walking somewhere on my own, but for some reason in the evenings I haven't been able to go somewhere without my husband with me for the past 3 months.

 

Anyway then the past few days it seems like the adrenaline levels have been steadily climbing. I could barely sleep the past couple nights either.

 

Yesterday I felt pretty off most of the day like there was a lot of excess nervous energy inside me and in the evening I could feel a panic attack coming on. I started doing a couple chores around the house and that seemed to hold it off until I took my regular dose of propranolol at 8 pm. I used to think these were just waves of anxiety but I'm starting to think they are actually very random panic attacks. The last time I felt a strong one like that was a little over 2 weeks ago. I still feel uneasy today and I have a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes as I'm sitting here at work. It's been exactly a week since the last time I had a full blown crying episode.

 

Is it just going to be like this for months on end? Short windows of ease followed by building up of adrenaline and then panic and crying? What a nightmare. 

[fishinghat]

The good news is the good times last logner and the bad times are less severe. Three to 4 good days in a row is a great sign.

[frog]

It does seem like the good times are sticking around a bit longer, but it sure doesn't feel like the bad times are any less awful. 

 

Also is it common to pretty much only have panic/anxiety/mood withdrawal symptoms? I noticed people on this forum seem to suffer from other physical problems like dizziness or tinnitus or brain fog, etc. and not so much mention of intense anxiety. I don't have any of the other stuff. For me it's all strong physical panic and anxiety feelings fueled by adrenaline and recently also a lot of bouts of crying. If the panic and anxiety stopped tomorrow, I would feel completely back to normal. 

[gail]

Hi Frog,

The majority of withdrawers do suffer from anxiety. Then it moves to other ailments.

Frog, my boyfriend used to call me his little frog. I loved that. Love xx

[frog]

Ugh I had those wonderful nights last week where I slept amazing and now 3 nights in a row I've barely slept and I have no idea why. This is getting so old. When I don't sleep for a few days I'm so irritable and want to cry the whole day. 

[fishinghat]

Up and down and over and over. Very fatiguing.

[Mxpro32]

It does seem like the good times are sticking around a bit longer, but it sure doesn't feel like the bad times are any less awful.

Also is it common to pretty much only have panic/anxiety/mood withdrawal symptoms? I noticed people on this forum seem to suffer from other physical problems like dizziness or tinnitus or brain fog, etc. and not so much mention of intense anxiety. I don't have any of the other stuff. For me it's all strong physical panic and anxiety feelings fueled by adrenaline and recently also a lot of bouts of crying. If the panic and anxiety stopped tomorrow, I would feel completely back to normal.

I didn't have the physical symptoms, just the crazy anxiety/adrenaline and crying. Don't be surprised if the anxiety turns to heavy depression though. It's probably going to swing back and forth for a while. My anxiety isn't as bad, and my depression isn't as dark, but I'm still going between the two with some days of normalcy. Lately I feel like I'm in mourning for all the life I missed while numbed out on this crap. The strong emotions I feel, even the crying remind me what I was missing out on. It's like I woke up to find out my kids are already 4 and 6 and I wasted part of their childhood numbed up and worried about things that didn't matter. I think it's part of my healing though so I welcome the tears.

[frog]

Thanks mxpro. It really helps to hear you're still on the rollercoaster as sometimes when I read your posts it seems like you're doing so much better than I am and it worries me that my progress is too slow.

I never had depression even before Cymbalta and so far I seem to be avoiding it for the most part I think. I'm more so just frequently plagued by fears of never getting better and being a nervous ticking time bomb forever, who will never have their old life back. I had an easier week last week with minimal fears and minimal crying but I was also sleeping better and I'm more and more convinced that the two are tied together.

 

I also struggle with the idea that others, like you, are at least able to find some solace in the fact that you have new emotions again that Cymbalta was numbing. I don't think I'm finding any new emotions inside myself. I'm just feeling like a basketcase. 

 

Also wondering if you ever get panic attacks? Most times I find that the anxiety rises but never quite gets to panic level but occasionally the anxiety/adrenaline really peaks and turns into a full panic attack. These i find to be the scariest and worst parts of the withdrawal. 

[invalidusername]

Frog...

 

It is usually the case that the physical side of the withdrawal comes first, followed by the psychological. Rarely is it the other way, but sometimes, they can come at the same time, and sometimes the physical can be bypassed altogether. Varies, but for the most part the first mention applies in most cases, but yours is not unheard of.

 

"I'm more so just frequently plagued by fears of never getting better and being a nervous ticking time bomb forever, who will never have their old life back."

 

That is exactly where mine got to after a while, and what I would say accompanies a really bad day. Confidence that comes with the better days will gradually alleviate these moments. But situational and circumstantials will largely dictate the timeframe for these...

 

Some times it can be good not to have a panic attack, but when I had them, it was almost a relief once they had come and gone. It is like when you are feeling nauseous but are never sick. Sometimes, it is better to be sick and for the nausea to be gone. Not the nicest example, but it is the only one I can think of!

[frog]

IUN did you have panic attacks before withdrawal or was it part of your withdrawal? Do you still get them or did they go away eventually?