727 replies to this topic

[frog]

Haha it was a bit... offputting when he said it. But I'm definitely a straightshooter so honestly I appreciated the candor. I'd rather operate from the point of absolute truth. Now that I know I'm his worst, I also know that he's kind of operating on trial and error since he hasn't dealt with it before. On the bright side he said that he doesn't think I will need long term medication to deal with my baseline anxiety. We'll know better as things return back to normal but that's his guess right now. I'm starting therapy in a couple weeks and he thinks that will be enough. 

 

In other good news, today is day 1 of dropping to 6 beads! I'm not expecting to see much difference from 7 to 6 especially while I'm on propranolol but if I were to see a reaction, how quickly do you think it would come up? Within a day or two? 

[fishinghat]

I would say 2 to 4 days.

[invalidusername]

Agreed. Is around 3 days for blood levels to settle. Couple of days either side - and if there is still nothing, you should be in the clear.

 

Therapy goes to places where medication cannot. AD's should never be used as a "band-aid for the brain" in my opinion. In situations like Hat's where he was the victim of anxiety bought about violently against his will, then yes. But where people have had trauma, bereavement etc - unless things are that bad, therapy should always be the first port of call. 

 

But of course, that is more expensive, and the government don't get their tax dollars. It involves the GP having to write a referral. Oh the hassle... why not just have these little white pills...? 

[frog]

Exactly! It really is so frustrating how hard it is to get insurance to pay for therapy of any kind! Mental or physical! (at least here in the US) But those are the only two ways that truly address the actual problem and lead to long term improvement and healing rather than just covering up the symptoms with continuous medications that typically have pretty significant drawbacks and often require people to pile on other medications to deal with the side effects from THOSE medications. What a mess. 

 

What I've discovered through this process is how many people close to me are, or were, on ADs that I never realized and it really made me think about how ADs are a pretty serious medication that is given out like it's absolutely no big deal, and how many people probably don't need anything that serious. They also seem to be heavily prescribed by doctors who don't specialize in psychiatry or anything else related to the brain, and I personally feel like that shouldn't be the case. For example mine were prescribed by a gynocologist. My uncle-in-law who is an internist said he also prescribes Cymbalta a lot. I guess I just don't feel confident in these doctors' knowledge about the potential harm of these drugs since it's not their area of expertise and the brain in particular is still such an evolving area of study. 

[invalidusername]

A lot of primaries and GP are "educated" by the pharma reps. They don't have time to keep up with all the latest goings-on in the field, and the reps know this. They just shove facts which have been suitably presented to their favour under the GP's nose and off they go...

[frog]

I'm really struggling with feeling like I'm not improving at all after 2 months (2 months since anxiety kicked in, nearly 3 months total since my last 18mg dose of cymbalta). I read over all of my early posts on this thread and it kind of got me discouraged because it doesn't seem like things are so different now based on what I was describing then. There's still a good/great day about once a week and a bunch of so-so half good/half bad days and at least one tough day every week. Last week I think I had two pretty good days in a row. This week I guess yesterday was pretty decent but I don't know if I'd completely call it great.

 

This week I started keeping a record of how I feel every day via a Google form so I'm hoping when I eventually plot my answers out on a graph I can see an upward trend but based on memories alone I feel like I'm standing still. I feel better because the propranolol is working but (in my mind) take that away and I'd be right back to where I was 3 weeks ago before I started taking it. Is this really how excruciatingly slow this process is? I know there will be good days and bad days for a while yet but I guess I expected to be feeling better by now. Every time I have a bad day all the tough symptoms seem to return to some degree: nausea, some cognitive difficulty, anxiety, agitation, negative pessimistic thinking, etc. 

 

I tried 200 mg of gabapentin last night in place of the Seroquel and unfortunately couldn't fall asleep all night. Doc's original dose was for 300mg, I don't know if it's worth trying again at the higher dose or just assume it's not going to help me with sleep. I wasn't anxious in the night but I'm having a tough day mentally and physically today and I know the lack of sleep is majorly contributing to feeling badly. I felt almost exactly like this last weekend when I went two nights without Seroquel and didn't sleep. Very emotional, crying suddenly, and my temples are throbbing. Is there any way I've already developed a dependence on Seroquel or is it most likely just the sleep deprivation causing the spike in symptoms? At the same time today was day 4 on 6 beads of Cymbalta. I don't think the 1 bead drop caused today's bad day since I was pretty much doing ok the first 3 days. I guess I'll see what tomorrow brings after some sleep.

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated particularly around when I might start seeing more better days and less of these crappy ones. 

[Mxpro32]

Hang in there. It's awful, but it gets better. I can't believe how much better I'm feeling. I have a buddy who just posted on Facebook about the living hell he's going through coming off cymbalta. He texted me that he's going from angry to crying to anxious to bawling his eyes out. Pretty much what I was doing too. It's still not all roses for me, but I'm here to tell you it gets better. The biggest influence on my progress was mindset. If I questioned whether it was withdrawals or just me being messed up, it got worse. If I trusted that my brain was out of sorts from cymbalta and I was healing and would get better, I felt way better. Don't waste time questioning your sanity or progress. You are going to be fine. Allow yourself to feel the emotional misery without assigning any meaning to it. Be kind to yourself and cut yourself slack. You are removing an emotional cast and you are going to be vulnerable and sensitive for a while. It gets better.

[fishinghat]

"I can see an upward trend but based on memories alone I feel like I'm standing still."

Isn't that true? You feel like it will last forever. You are in the worst part right no so hang on .

By reputation Seroquel is a better sleep aide than gabapentin. In fact it seems like I have only heard of gabapentin used for anxiety and such but not sleep.

[invalidusername]

Lovely post Mxpro. Exactly what I would have said. Not much more to add, other than this stuff is still in your system Frog. It will still be nasty at the moment. From the tally you are keeping, you are doing better than I was at that time. You are being very patient and that is what counts at the moment. Things can look very bleak, but with all the meds and the withdrawal, you have to keep telling yourself that this is to be expected. There will be ups and downs, but over all, the only way forward from here is up.

 

And... I would stay off the gabapentin as we discussed. I wouldn't have expected it to do much first time around, but as Hat said, it is not something that we have heard of used off-label for sleep. I feel this will only upset the equilibrium that your system is trying to maintain.

[frog]

Hang in there. It's awful, but it gets better. I can't believe how much better I'm feeling. I have a buddy who just posted on Facebook about the living hell he's going through coming off cymbalta. He texted me that he's going from angry to crying to anxious to bawling his eyes out. Pretty much what I was doing too. It's still not all roses for me, but I'm here to tell you it gets better. The biggest influence on my progress was mindset. If I questioned whether it was withdrawals or just me being messed up, it got worse. If I trusted that my brain was out of sorts from cymbalta and I was healing and would get better, I felt way better. Don't waste time questioning your sanity or progress. You are going to be fine. Allow yourself to feel the emotional misery without assigning any meaning to it. Be kind to yourself and cut yourself slack. You are removing an emotional cast and you are going to be vulnerable and sensitive for a while. It gets better.

 

It is very encouraging to hear that you are getting better but you seem to be lucky enough to be improving pretty quickly! If I have it right then you're 3 months off Cymbalta and about 2 months since you got the bad emotional symptoms and anxiety? Timeline-wise I think I'm about a week or so behind you and I don't really feel like I'm getting that much better yet. Sigh. 

[frog]

"I can see an upward trend but based on memories alone I feel like I'm standing still."

Isn't that true? You feel like it will last forever. You are in the worst part right no so hang on .

By reputation Seroquel is a better sleep aide than gabapentin. In fact it seems like I have only heard of gabapentin used for anxiety and such but not sleep.

 

Yeesh am I really still in the worst of it? How long does the worst of it last? 

 

I took 75mg of Seroquel last night (instead of usual 50mg) to see if I could stay asleep longer on a higher dosage. Well it backfired. I couldn't fall asleep at all. My body felt tired and heavy and I could barely move but my mind wouldn't shut itself off so I was stuck in limbo which increased my anxiety. Will go back to 50mg tonight and pray for some solid sleep because I'm incredibly tired. 

[frog]

Lovely post Mxpro. Exactly what I would have said. Not much more to add, other than this stuff is still in your system Frog. It will still be nasty at the moment. From the tally you are keeping, you are doing better than I was at that time. You are being very patient and that is what counts at the moment. Things can look very bleak, but with all the meds and the withdrawal, you have to keep telling yourself that this is to be expected. There will be ups and downs, but over all, the only way forward from here is up.

 

And... I would stay off the gabapentin as we discussed. I wouldn't have expected it to do much first time around, but as Hat said, it is not something that we have heard of used off-label for sleep. I feel this will only upset the equilibrium that your system is trying to maintain.

 

Is it really possible that so little Cymbalta is still having any effect? 

[invalidusername]

Is it really possible that so little Cymbalta is still having any effect? 

 

Absolutely. I will tell you now that brother Hat will agree with me. 

 

And I know you say you are a week or so behind Mxpro, but a week can make such a difference at the moment. The journal is the way to go. It is such a slow process. Its like watching your hair grow in the mirror or something.. LOL.

 

This time last year I was into my withdrawal and a few days on pregabalin and laid up in bed with the worst flu symptoms imaginable... plus the awful anxiety it was trying to get rid of. Next minute I was at my parents having a seizure and throwing up. THAT is what Cymbalta can do.

[frog]

My husband helped me set up a Google form so every night I just fill in the answers of how I felt today and how much anxiety I had and how my stomach was and in a few weeks we can have Google plot them out on a graph to see if there's any upward trend. I feel like I'm overthinking my answers though so the results might be skewed in the negative direction... 

 

I know many people including FH had really bad experiences even on very miniscule amounts of Cymbalta while tapering, which definitely makes sense especially with the possibility that withdrawal could catch up to you whenever it feels like even if it seemed like things are going well. On the other hand I was off these things completely for almost a month, got the terrible withdrawal anxiety and THEN went back on a handful of beads. I can't even say definitively if those few beads actually helped at all. If they did, it was a very very tiny bit. I wish I had stuck it out and didn't go back on any Cymbalta but I was in a real bad way at the time and I think even the placebo effect was helping.

Last week Doc said to drop a couple or a few beads a week. I'm gonna stick to one a week just for extra precaution. I know the drops have potential to bring back symptoms but I'm assuming even while I'm on a few beads still that the brain continues to heal and rebalance

[fishinghat]

The worst part usually, it varies a lot, lasts around 6 to 8 months after the last dose. Remember it is not the Cymbalta that is causing the issue. It is the lack of Cymbalta. The nerves have depended on the Cymbalta to control  certain neurotransmitters. Now that there is little to no Cymbalta in the system the nerves have to adapt and learn how to control these neurotransmitters all over again . Studies have shown that it takes around 2 years for the nerves to fully adapt. Of course you are not in full withdrawal during that entire time.

[invalidusername]

Yes - the brain is "recalibrating" even at that level. In fact your brain is recalibrating every minute of every day we just aren't aware of it until it hits a scale like it does on withdrawal. 

 

Hat has detailed it more correctly in saying it is the LACK of the cymbalta, but it is still the cymbalta that is causing it... just that there isn't any. 

 

There are so many ways to try to explain this, but I always like the broken leg example. When you are withdrawing from the Cymbalta, it is like you have taken the cast off (I think Mx said this earlier). When the cast comes off, you haven't moved your leg in weeks, so you need to remember how it all goes together... left in front of right etc. The muscles will ache, the tendons will stretch.. yada yada. Your brain is doing the same thing. 

 

Again as Hat said, the Cymbalta was there to do the work for the brain until you took it away. You threw away the crutches, you have taken the cast off. You are learning to walk again my dear sausage

[frog]

Would my last dose be considered when I quit almost 3 months ago or when I'm down to 0 from this last remaining bit? 

 

Also slightly unrelated, but have people on the forum had success with Valerian root for sleep? I know it helps relaxation and anxiety. I'm pretty doubtful it'll help with sleep but figured I'd ask. I'm also concerned about possible interactions obviously. 

[fishinghat]

Your last dose would be the date you are completely off Cymbalta.
 
here is what is in the ebook on Valerian root.

Valerian root

Fishinghat - A caution for those who use or are considering using valerian root. It greatly slows down the bodies ability to process and eliminate benzos. This allows the benzos to build to very high values in the body. Caution should be used when taking the two at the same time.

 

Fivenotions - Ditto to the valerian caution.....I tried it as tea....wasn't using benzos, but it whacked me out somehow....a tip I got from Fishinghat is to start whatever it is you're trying....amino, herb, etc....in very small amounts/doses....and work up gradually....

Boot2 - i found if i combined chocolate (i am using unsweetened health food store kind now) and valerian- it feels like i am almost normal again...thought i;d pass that along.

LadyNancy - I had a reaction to valerian but then that is nothing new for me.

RussellSprout - The valerian/mag combo (when I remember to do both) doesn't act like a sleeping pill or anything of that sort, but it does physically relax me so I can drift to sleep more easily. Unfortunately, the valerian smells like death.

Hornet - I too am enjoying the dreams. Additionally, I have been taking Valerian root to help sleep and it exacerbates the dreams.

brzghoff - valerian works for some, gives me a headache.

jillybean - I also use valerian root (from puritan's pride) 450 mg capsules 1 capsule late afternoon and 1 before bed. This is considered nature's valium and though it does not make me drowsy I do feel it is helping with anxiety. I missed the late afternoon dose yesterday and had one hell of a panic attack. I won't do that again.

Albergo - Made things worse: Valerian root (really bad reaction - BIG WARNING), benzodiazepines (clonozepam .5mg, took 1-2 weeks to recover from),

Around 20 members mention taking valerian, especially in their SleepyTime Tea. I would estimate around 60% said it helped with around 40% saying no. Several had bad reactions/interactions with it.

Drug.com list 581 drug interactions for Valerian, including sleep aides, benzos, cold medicines, and more.
 

[invalidusername]

It's a case of trying it - but don't get the pills - buy it direct in powder form and mix it with juice. It is much cheaper and you can regulate your own dose. 

 

I spent £12 on some capsules from a health food shop a while back and they did sod all. I then bought some powder direct from some dude in the US via ETSY. Man does it stink! But I took a couple of grams and worked so much better... and a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

EDIT - I should say that people should work up to larger doses. I am quite a large chap, so I clearly needed more than regular dose, so I don't suggest you measure out 2 grams and chug it first time

[frog]

IUN What's the ideal dosage? And is it something you'd have to start taking nightly or just whenever you need it? 

 

FH I didn't find anything about interactions with Propranolol or Cymbalta or magnesium glycinate or omega 3s. That's all that I take daily. There are interactions with Seroquel where it can of course increase the sedation effects which would be ok for nighttime but I would also be using this in place of Seroquel anyway.

BTW I'm horrified that it would be 7-9 additional months before I'm through the worst of it if what you say is correct.

 

Also I thought this was interesting, I stumbled on a random article that talked about negative affects beta blockers have on sleep. Apparently the drug affects your body's production of melatonin and makes it hard to fall asleep. https://www.lifeexte...f-restful-sleep

[invalidusername]

 

IUN What's the ideal dosage? And is it something you'd have to start taking nightly or just whenever you need it? 

 

 

That's just it - there is no universal ideal dosage. It is whatever works for you. I take a couple of grams to help chill me out if I find myself too wired. I also have my other "leaf-based" substance (my special K!) which I mix with juice as well. Sometimes I will mix the two to make sure I don't get too used to the special K. As I said, you will need to try. 

 

What I suggest is that you start with 500mg and then after 45min to an hour you do not feel much going on, then go for another 500mg at that point. If that works, then stick with 1gm as your dose. If that still doesn't work, start with 1gm and then add 500gm after another 45-60 minutes and continue until you find your dose. It is fairly safe stuff, but if you hit around the 2gm mark and still nothing, it might be wise to throw in the towel. You also need to watch for the "hangover" effect in the morning if you take too much - assuming you dose for sleep. It is not so bad during the day.

 

If it isn't going to work, you may well end up feeling groggy rather than relaxed and sleepy. Hopefully that won't be the case for you. Please report back finding so we can add to the slate of reports we have in the eBook....

[fishinghat]

"FH I didn't find anything about interactions with Propranolol or Cymbalta or magnesium glycinate or omega 3s."

The only reaction I am aware of is that between any magnesium produict and Cymbalta. They sghould be taken at least 2 hours apart as the magnesium will interfer with the absorption of the Cymbalta.

I am sorry about the bad news about the length of the withdrawal. There are some that take 2 years and I know a few that have quit 2 or more times with no withdrawal at all. Go figure.

[frog]

Checking in again. Still on the rollercoaster. I had no problems with the 6 beads so I dropped to 5 this week. I've been feeling kind of crappy since Monday but I really don't know if it's just a normal wave or if it's because of the drop. If it's just a wave then I should have 1-2 good days coming up. I'm going to wait for those before I drop again. 

 

Using the little tracker I created to check in every day has actually been interesting. My digestive issues have been improving but yesterday they were back to their old awful selves. I looked at the tracker and I had actually marked my stomach as being at least 'good' for a week straight prior to yesterday so I hope that's a good sign of overall improvement. 

 

It's a small sample size (less than 2 weeks at this point) but so far I saw a pattern of having 2 so-so/bad days followed by 2 pretty good days then 2 more so-so days then 2 good days again. Really hoping this pattern continues and improves. Shooting for 3 good days in a row. Dare I dream!?

 

I'm seeing a therapist for the first time ever on Monday. Hoping it's a good fit and hoping she can help me deal with some of my inherent anxieties. 

 

The psychiatrist is doing his best despite never having dealt with someone like me before. He hasn't suggested changing anything with the drugs but getting consistent sleep of 7 uninterrupted hours is still a struggle. He suggested raising the seroquel from 50 to 75 but I had tried that one night and it left me with a really sedated physical feeling and a racing mind which just gave me lots of anxiety and no sleep. He also suggested taking some gabapentin along with the seroquel at night. He said it's not an issue to take gabapentin on an as needed basis. Any thoughts? I'm really desperate for sleep. For the most part 50mg of seroquel has worked but most of the time I only sleep about 5ish hours straight. I had two good nights this week where I slept 6 or even 7 but last night I got 2 before it pooped out. The lack of sleep has to be having a negative effect on my recovery but I can't seem to get it right!

[fishinghat]

Those recent bumps in the road are probably due to the recent drop. I think you are wise to give it maybe 5 to 7 days and see where you land. Yes, sleep is important and I wish you could get a solid 7 or 8 hours but that would be very abnormal. Members (including me) have tried seroguel, gabapentin, trazadone, hydroxyzine, benzos, the Z - drugs and much more and all I can say is that getting 5 or 6 hours is as good as it normally gets. The gabapentin at say once or twice a week should be safe concerning withdrawal. Good luck and keep us posted.

[frog]

Thanks FH. That helps. I plan to try the gaba with the seroquel soon. It's sad to hear that the thing we all need most (good sleep) is so hard to come by at this time but makes me feel better about not getting those full 7-8 hours. I think the 50mg of seroquel does a pretty consistent job of putting me to sleep but after that it's a bit of a crapshoot about how long I stay that way. 

 

Overall I expected to have a tougher day based on my night and how I felt in the morning but it's been ok. Makes me hopeful the next few days will be better and I can continue my drops. Husband and I took a little walk and sat outside in the sunshine for almost an hour and it felt so nice and I think really turned my mood around. We're incredibly lucky to have moved here to California and to be able to have this kind of weather in January. It's tough going through all this without family and friends nearby but at least I have this beautiful weather and this amazing nature all around us. 

[frog]

Also the past few nights I've noticed that the anxiety seems to heighten in the evenings which is generally the opposite of what I've gotten used to. I take my remaining 5 beads split into morning and evening and for this week's drop I shaved a bead off the evening dose (so 3 in the am and 2 in the pm). Does it sound like it's the lower beads causing the evening anxiety? It's not severe but it's definitely uncomfortable and I think it's partly what's messing with my sleep even more than usual. I guess if I know it's the drop causing it then I will wait until it goes away again before dropping further. It's really unbelievable that such a miniscule amount out of what was originally 200+ can have any effect. Cymbalta is just plain scary. I can't wait to be done with it forever. 

[fishinghat]

Yes, I would say it was probably that one bead drop. Just hang in there and in a few weeks things should once again improve.

[frog]

That's kind of what I figured. I'm hopeful it'll be sooner than a few weeks though. It's really not that bad and mostly just in the evening and if I didn't know any better I'd probably just keep going with the taper but I think I've learned my lesson with rushing these things. It doesn't pay off. 

[frog]

Man I am really struggling with sleep these couple of weeks. I'm still on 50mg seroquel and now I take it nightly instead of taking breaks. I thought that would make things better but I almost think that I've just developed a tolerance to it. It still does the job of getting me to fall asleep every night but it used to be that I'd fall asleep and stay asleep for a good 5 hours and THEN wake up and generally just lie with my eyes closed for the rest of the night. Now I stay asleep for maybe 2 hours only. Sometimes I'm able to fall asleep again if I'm lucky but a lot of times I can't. I've felt really exhausted every night when going to bed but it's almost like my brain is the one that's super worn out but my body is maybe not quite there? I'm really confused and really frustrated. I'm seeing the NP again on Saturday. So far his suggestions have only been to increase the Seroquel to 75mg. Any ideas? Anything else that's helped others get more consistency with their sleep? 

[fishinghat]

Many people develop tolerance to Seroquel fairly rapidly although this is quicker than I would expect. My dr and I tried most everything on me when I was in withdrawal and nothing helped the sleep except hydroxyzine. But others have no help from it but do well with melatonin or clonidine or trazadone or etc etc. Some times one of these helps and sometimes they don't. As the anxiety fades the sleep will increase. I know, it sucks.