727 replies to this topic

[Lovey]

Hi frog, mxpro, fh, iun. Praying we all have a good day and the healing comes abundantly. Thinking of you all and all on our site. Dtheisen, polly, ldn, much love.

[Polly38]

Thanks HrK and I am praying for you all too.

I have got excruciating pains at the top of my stomach again today. It is day 10 off Duloxetine today and IUN warned me symptoms may peak on day 10 so I'm hoping that this is the worst of it🙏.

Polly

[fishinghat]

"I thought I was just feeling better on my own. I hate the idea that I'm only feeling better because of a supplement because it means I'm now dependent on it for feeling better"

But that supplement is giving you time for your body to heal.

[invalidusername]

"I thought I was just feeling better on my own. I hate the idea that I'm only feeling better because of a supplement because it means I'm now dependent on it for feeling better"

But that supplement is giving you time for your body to heal.

 

If everyone thought that, the medical industry would take a serious nosedive!!

[frog]

I'm really unaccustomed to taking supplements. I barely take Advil when I have a headache usually. 

 

I'm still having a rough day today. Anxiety was higher in the night so I had little to no sleep again. I took the day off work because I woke up exhausted and anxious and just really off. I'm also dealing with PMS at the moment so I wonder if that's having a negative effect on me too. 

 

Just wanted to ask again since I seemed to have a good 24 hours a couple days ago and now am back down in the pits, is this the start of the recataloging you guys mention? It took me like... 4 weeks to get to that good 24 hours. Is it going to take another 4 weeks to get a good day again now that I'm feeling bad again? 

[fishinghat]

Probably 3 and 1/2. lol Seriously, it takes a little less time each cycle and it lasts a little longer. The less stress in your life the sooner a good period comes up.

 

By the way, you mentioned PMS. Cymbalta withdrawal often effects (lowers) estrogen and testosterone.; You may wish to have that checked as it can really complicate things.

[frog]

Probably 3 and 1/2. lol Seriously, it takes a little less time each cycle and it lasts a little longer. The less stress in your life the sooner a good period comes up.

 

Those weeks were really really hard. I'm not super confident in my ability to deal with the same for another 3+ weeks when the window of feeling better was so very short. And then of course again. And again. And again. Plus I was sleeping much better during the first cycle and now I'm sleeping like crap which is adding to my anxiety and exhaustion. The sleep thing has really been affecting me. A week and a half ago I did start splitting my 7 beads into a half dose twice a day. 8 am in the morning and 8 pm at night. Could that be affecting my sleep? 

 

 

 

By the way, you mentioned PMS. Cymbalta withdrawal often effects (lowers) estrogen and testosterone.; You may wish to have that checked as it can really complicate things.

 

It's weird because I am on a very low hormone birth control so theoretically I shouldn't get getting any PMS symptoms, but even when I was taking Cymbalta normally I would get PMS symptoms at times where I guess my body felt like I should be having them. 

[fishinghat]

"A week and a half ago I did start splitting my 7 beads into a half dose twice a day. 8 am in the morning and 8 pm at night. Could that be affecting my sleep?"

It is possible. The only way to know is to change back and see what happens.

[frog]

My nausea cleared up after I split the dose so I'm hesitant to go back to one a day. 

Would it help to maybe take the night time dose a little earlier? Like even 7pm? 

[Lovey]

Hey frog, I take my split doses at 4 pm and 4 am. I almost always wake up on my own around that time. Otherwise I take it when i first wake up. Never later than 7 am. By taking it at pm, it gives me a chance to settle down and be tired enough to sleep. I do rely on xanax, for the time being to help me nod off. I will eventually wean off that too after the cymbalta nightmare is over. But even with xanax, I was too excitable when taking the Cymbalta before bed. Maybe a strategy for you to try? 4 am, 4 pm? I seem to be ok if i am within a few hours of the doses so its a blessing having some wiggle room as far as the exact time etc.

[fishinghat]

As you guys are saying, it just takes some experimenting. Each person has differences in their hormonal schedule so there is no set answer.

[frog]

Thanks Hrk. The reason I take it at 8 and 8 is because I wake up around 7:30 for work. I didn't want to set a time that I wasn't positive I'd be awake for in order to keep the timing consistent. As you said though there is some wiggle room so maybe I'll shoot for 7:30 am and 7pm. 

 

FH or IUN: I'm seeing a psych nurse practitioner on Saturday for an evaluation. I don't really know what to expect or what he'll advise me to do to help through this. I'm also a big believer in doing your own research and advocating for yourself so is there anything I should ask for to help me have a quality of life back as the brain continues to do its thing? I've read about hydroxyzine on here, it sounds like something that would really address the issues I'm having. Of course I'm scared to start up any kind of medication after the mess Cymbalta left me in. 

[fishinghat]

I can't really think of anything to ask. My concern would be does this person even believe in Cymbalta withdrawal. If not, well keep looking. If a new med is desired I would say start with hydroxyzine or clonidine before going to a benzo as they are addictive and have a nasty withdrawal.

[invalidusername]

Yes, I would agree there as they both last longer and are better long term (2 months+) than a benzo. 

 

Please report back on what is said during meeting and we can re-evaluate from there.

[frog]

Based on his profile he seems like an open minded person and the clinic itself has a few little blog posts that have been written by various therapists/nurses/psychiatrists at the practice and one of them mentions potential withdrawal from ADs so I feel fairly confident that he's familiar with the concept (though he didn't write the post). Addiction is also one of his specialties so I imagine he's familiar with substance withdrawal, though I don't know how similar that is to AD withdrawal/recovery. But at least he likely has a broader experience to draw on than docs who just prescribe ADs all day every day. 

https://www.psycholo...cisco-ca/439233

 

I'm optimistic about him. In a perfect world what I'm looking for in our first session is just a confirmation that my specific experience is common and he's helped people through it before and a rough strategy/timeline for feeling better. 

[Lovey]

Closely following. Good luck frog!

[frog]

So I went to see the psych NP to do a whole evaluation. Overall I think it went well. He definitely wasn't surprised by anything I told him about the withdrawal part of all this. He did say that most people he's seen don't have as tough of a time as I have but that he has seen some people who have. He thinks the bad anxiety and related symptoms that I'm dealing with is rebound anxiety. Basically because I've dealt with some anxiety throughout my life, as my brain is trying to find my anxiety base level post-Cymbalta, I'm getting much more intense anxiety. He believes it'll calm down over the next month, but it's also possible that even when it does I may be left with GAD but we need to wait a bit to be able to separate one from the other. If I'm left with GAD we'll figure out a treatment plan for that at that time. 

 

In the meantime he wanted me to take Gabapentin to help calm the anxiety, and Propanolol which is a beta blocker that can help with the physical symptoms of anxiety. He described it as potentially still having the anxious thoughts and worries but not getting that physical fight or flight response. Anyone have experience with these? 

[invalidusername]

Just had a read, and well done for going through this.

 

My first annoyance here... why prescribe BOTH Gabapentin and Propranalol? This is not appropriate practice. Gabapentin or pregabalin are often prescribed at these times, but as we have said many times on this site, it is not a good idea to take two drugs at the same point as you will never know which drug is causing the benefits and/or adverse symptoms.

 

I went to see a different GP when mine was on a break and I had a chest infection. He wanted to give me antibiotics AND steroids. Why steroids as well I asked? They might perhaps speed things along a bit, but they are absolutely not necessary, and are more of a risk than a benefit given the potential reactions a lot of people have to steroids. He had already printed the rx, but I only collected the amoxicillin.

 

Also, whilst a quick browse will tell you there is no interaction between Gabapentin and Propranalol, journals suggest otherwise;

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10768633

 

Gabapentin is used more long term for GAD and will have its own withdrawal, whereas a beta blocker is used more occasionally, possibly have a milder effect and not as long lasting. It all comes down to how severe you feel the anxiety is. If you are unsure, I would opt for the Prop first. Throwing another potential withdrawal into the mix is not something you want to do.

 

Speaking on behalf of Hat, he will also mention blood pressure concerns with beta blockers. Do you suffer with hypa/hypo (high/low) blood pressure at all?

 

Again, a foolish suggestion to take both of these when it is clearly not required - at least not at this stage...

[frog]

Hi IUN, 

I'm with you about not taking them both at the same time right away. He didn't specifically advise me to try them out separately but that was my plan anyway so that like you said I can see if one is working or not working. 

For the Gabapentin he said 300mg 3 times a day as needed. But he gave them to me in 100mg caps so that I can work my way up because he could tell I was nervous about getting unwanted side effects.

So I was thinking today I will take 100mg 3 times. If I notice a good effect then great! If not I will try 200mg x 3 tomorrow and potentially 300 x 3 on Monday. Then I would try out the beta blocker. 

He has me on 10mg caps 1-2 caps twice a day so max of 40mg which is what the article said improved that patient's condition so I think I should be good there. The pharmacist also said there was no interaction. 

The reason I wanted to try the gaba first is actually the blood pressure as you mentioned. The NP also mentioned it can lower your blood pressure. I've never been diagnosed with any BP condition but at least during my time on Cymbalta my BP was a liiiiittle bit high. However since going through post-Cymbalta nonsense I've been lightheaded here and there and I've been wondering if that's a sign of low BP or even just a lowered BP and my body adjusting to a new BP rate? So I got concerned about taking something that will make me feel even MORE lightheaded... 

[fishinghat]

I would like to add that gabapentin is not particularly effective on anxiety but may help a little. It also has a moderate withdrawal for most. The propranolol is a beta blocker but it is important to note that it does not cross the blood brain barrier and thus only slows down the adrenaline action in the body not the brain . So as he said it may not help the anxious thinking but it will help with heart pounding, high pulse and the such. It does NOT have a withdrawal but your bp will spike if you stop it cold turkey. Usually a 2 or 3 week wean is all that is needed.

[invalidusername]

That is a very good point about the action of the beta blocker Hat, and precisely why I suggested it BEFORE the gabapentin to see whether then reduction of physical symptoms helped Frog with her thinking. 

 

Again, this is just my thinking and just one opinion. If the p-doc made sufficient enquiry, he may be right with the Gabapentin, but again, I reiterate the importance of not initially taking both.

[Mxpro32]

I would like to add that gabapentin is not particularly effective on anxiety but may help a little. It also has a moderate withdrawal for most. The propranolol is a beta blocker but it is important to note that it does not cross the blood brain barrier and thus only slows down the adrenaline action in the body not the brain . So as he said it may not help the anxious thinking but it will help with heart pounding, high pulse and the such. It does NOT have a withdrawal but your bp will spike if you stop it cold turkey. Usually a 2 or 3 week wean is all that is needed.

Sounds like that help me. I have crazy adrenaline feelings most of the time, with or without anxious thoughts

[fishinghat]

Ahh yes, how the adrenaline flows during withdrawal.

[invalidusername]

Three damn months of it in my case!

 

Many was the dicey walk down 5 flights of stairs with my knees knocking...

[frog]

Hi guys,

I was thinking about what y'all said and actually something the NP asked me about during the session. Obviously I was anxious during the session and he asked me what my anxiety was like and what I was thinking. And it occurred to me that at least in that moment I wasn't actually thinking anything anxious. I was just straight up in physical fight or flight. And I think that's been true for a lot of the past month and a half. Usually any anxious thoughts I have are FAR less than the accompanying physical distress. I took 100mg of Gabapentin around 1pm. I feel a bit calmer but I think I'm also totally zapped from not sleeping most of the night so it's hard to say. I think I'm gonna pivot here and not take any more and take the beta blocker tonight instead. Should I wait to take it before bedtime? He gave me 10mg and said to take 1-2 twice a day. I think I'll start with 1 because I'm worried about the BP dropping too suddenly. Does that seem like an ok plan? 

 

Do you think the beta blockers will also help with the GI issues and appetite? 

[Lovey]

Hi frog thx for checking in. I have no experience with these particular meds but these kind folks here seem to be adding some knowledge and wisdom.I had a good day today everyone.

[fishinghat]

The propranolol will not effect the stomach issues much. Taking it at bedtime will lower your b p slightly and make it easier to get to sleep. Your body will adjust your b p back toward normal in about a week. When your bp stabilizes then it would be time to try the second pill if you want to.

[frog]

Well unfortunately I still got little sleep last night. I physically felt much calmer in the night, I wasn't getting super hot or having loud heartbeats and didn't really have that sudden mental jerking awake when I could feel myself falling asleep. So that was all positive and I assume the result of the beta blocker. However I still couldn't really fall asleep. I felt like I was kind of inbetween asleep and awake most of the time. I probably drifted off at times but I must have just stayed in the light sleep stage and then back to awake again. Around 5:30 I took a little melatonin. Probably not a good idea and it didn't really help anyway. Definitely tired this morning. 

 

I just took another beta blocker to see what the effects are like during the day and I was intending on taking 2 at night tonight. 

 

I also think that the Ash has finally pooped out. I'm just not really feeling that sort of body high type feeling that I used to get from it. So I'm going to take the day off today and maybe tomorrow and then try again? Should I try taking more of it? I was taking 300mg in the morning and 600 at night before bed. 

 

The NP said yesterday he didn't want to give me any sleep meds yet, which makes sense but man I NEED TO SLEEP. Is it just the anxiety keeping me awake? Or too much adrenaline? 

[fishinghat]

Anxiety is due to too much adrenaline. Same thing.

[invalidusername]

Hmmm - how long have you been taking the Ash? Is it KSM-66? 

 

Unfortunately one day tolerance break will do very little. Depending on how long you have been taking if for, you may need up to a week. I can tell you safe and effective doses if you can confirm what it is you are taking.

 

Can I also ask which state you are in - assuming you are in the US. I forget - so many members to remember.. LOL