727 replies to this topic

[frog]

Little update after a couple weeks off.

 

It's actually been an improved couple of weeks emotionally. I've been incredibly stressed with work and completely exhausted by the end of the day but it seems like my body and mind have been coping better and I've been starting each day relatively "fresh" rather than feeling like the stress was compounding until it all caved in on itself and sent me into a spiral of despair like in the past. I guess "balanced" is the word I'm looking for. I've felt more balanced these past couple weeks instead of the emotional zigs and zags before of feeling better, where I was more capable and more optimistic and positive for a few days, and then crashing into a hole the next day, crying my eyes out and feeling like I'll never get better. 

 

My sympathetic response is still on a hair trigger, and I'm hoping that continues to quiet down. The chest tightness, occasional shortness of breath, heart pounding still come around as soon as I feel overwhelmed or scared or stressed. But it seems to pass more quickly now, so I have more time in the day where I feel normal, which has been really helping to boost my confidence. I've been taking Suntheanine every morning, I wonder if that is the reason I'm feeling a lot better? 

 

The biggest source of constant acute panic, anxiety, and fear for me is the diarrhea. I'm actually fully convinced that if this was back to normal, that I would be 98% fine again. From the time I was tapering until recently there were so many emergency situations that sent me into major panic mode, that it's clearly traumatized me. Even the thought of being in a situation where there's not an easily accessible bathroom nearby now makes me very anxious and panicky, like I'm reliving and re-experiencing those moments in my head as if they're happening right now. Through a combination of Imodium and fiber supplements I've been able to manage my symptoms pretty well, but I haven't yet regained the trust and confidence in my body to be able to get over the trauma. I've made a little progress and put myself into "scary" situations and been ok and I think that's helping little by little. It's like I have to make new, good memories, to replace the bad, anxious ones. So that eventually when I start getting scared, my brain will pull from them for inspiration instead. I feel safest and least anxious when I'm at home and I don't have to go anywhere, but I keep trying to test my limits when there's an opportunity because I know I can do it and it's just a mental block I have to get over. It's tough though fighting with your own brain all the time. 

[frog]

OH! And last night I took my last gabapentin. 

As predicted it wasn't doing anything. I haven't felt any different. If anything I've felt better, but I don't know if that has anything to do with the gabapentin. 

 

I'm so close to being medication free again!

Currently:

AM: 

4 pills Citrucel fiber

1 Suntheanine

 

PM:

3 pill Citrucel fiber

half a tablet of imodium

Vitamin D caplet

25mg Seroquel right before bed

 

This is probably the mix I'll be sticking to for a while until I feel any further decrease in the panic/anxiety

[fishinghat]

Absolutely fantastic. It has been a long time in coming but it is getting close. Just don't over do it yet.

[invalidusername]

Awesome Frog!! I am really happy for you. 

 

The Suntheanine could well have something to do with the progress. Works wonders for some. Shame it pooped out on me.

 

I'd stick to where you are for now and the confidence in not having to change any more will only serve to decrease the anxious responses. 

 

And I echo Hat's words - just be careful not to get complacent with the progress - easily done. You will still be vulnerable, so go easy on yourself.

[Mxpro32]

thats great news!  I'm finding my nerves are still really jumpy, but I recover faster as well.  lately, even getting an email alert on my phone makes me jump inside.  we went to the beach house again over the weekend and I had a good friday and saturday, then sunday I woke up super sad, emotional, and anxious.  I got through the day ok but I felt like I could cry at any moment all day.  this morning I woke up anxious, but its gotten better as the day goes on.  I'm reminding myself, that the bad days now aren't anywhere near what they used to be.  I used to struggle making it through a day moment by moment.  now on a bad day I'm emotional, anxious, and unmotivated, but overall I don't feel too bad barring that stretch of depression I had.  I'm hoping to start feeling balanced as you describe it.  for now I'll settle for not feeling terrible all the time, especially considering I'm still tapering off of the benzo.   its good to hear from you.   

[frog]

That's great Mxpro! I'm so happy to hear you making progress again. I know you've had a tough time.

 

Of course as you can imagine I spoke way too soon as always. The past couple days have been tough. I haven't slept well and my job is very overwhelming right now. By 5 oclock I'm so spent I can barely think or move. My stomach has been bugging me for a couple days as well which doesn't help me feel good. My thoughts have been of the pessimistic and anxious variety but I've been trying to remind myself that it always inevitably passes. It's like walking a tightrope I feel like. It's still very disarming going up and the coming down. There's still quite a noticeable difference between the two. My husband is going on a trip for a week soon. When I feel like crap I get really scared of being alone for that long (this is the first time he'll be away for more than a day), when I don't feel like crap I feel confident that I can handle things and it'll be fine. I think that's actually the overarching theme. I'm just swinging back and forth from having and not having confidence in myself to tackle things. 

[frog]

Hat and IUN,

remind me what the relationship is between norepinephrine, adrenaline and cortisol? 

The past week I felt increasingly agitated every day, all the way up to Saturday when I felt so uncomfortable even just sitting still. It felt like my body was producing a little too much adrenaline or cortisol or something every day, but had no need for it so it just kept floating around in my body making me feel awful. I ended up going on a few mile bike ride on Saturday and the rest of the day and most of the following day I actually felt super peaceful in my body. Does this make any sense? Especially at 10 months out? Will my body still continue to get better at making the right amount of these chemicals? 

 

Also I'm disappointed because I've slept terribly the past week straight. The first 5 days I had no trouble falling asleep but would wake up at about 5:20am and be mostly unable to fall back asleep. The past couple nights falling asleep has been tougher too. The only thing that's different is that I stopped taking my gabapentin a week ago. I had dropped by a pill a week when getting off it and didn't have any issues, sleep or otherwise, so I'm not sure if it's related. Really frustrated though. Getting 5 hours of sleep every night is nowhere near enough and I feel so exhausted which I'm sure is not helping my body feel balanced. 

[Mxpro32]

I've been on the 5 hours of sleep per night schedule for a while now too.  it just beats you down physically and emotionally.  I've had issues falling asleep lately too, even with the trazodone which used to knock me out.  I hope I'm not building a tolerance to that too.  this morning I felt like I might be calm enough to keep sleeping, but the tiniest stressful thought gave me a huge jolt of adrenaline and that was it.  typically the adrenaline hits and I'm so anxious I wake up.  

[fishinghat]

The cycle is: tyrosine converts to L-Dopa to dopamine to norepinephrine and then epinephrine (adrenaline). 

 

Stressors stimulate the sympathetic nervous system which causes the release of catecholamines such as norepinephrine, serotonin, cortisol, and adrenaline from the medulla of the adrenal gland. 

 

You may be 10 months off Cymbalta but you have been cutting back on Seroquel, Gabapentin...

 

This is to be expected for probably another 2 to 4 months.

[frog]

I've been on the 5 hours of sleep per night schedule for a while now too.  it just beats you down physically and emotionally.  I've had issues falling asleep lately too, even with the trazodone which used to knock me out.  I hope I'm not building a tolerance to that too.  this morning I felt like I might be calm enough to keep sleeping, but the tiniest stressful thought gave me a huge jolt of adrenaline and that was it.  typically the adrenaline hits and I'm so anxious I wake up.  

 

YES! This is exactly me as well. The 1 pill of seroquel was doing just fine at putting me to sleep very reliably until a week ago. Regardless of how tired or sleepy I am, the second I get in bed and close my eyes my brain starts whirring and focusing on every single thought and I get the same zaps of adrenaline that you're describing which lead to anxiety. I feel like my brain has forgotten how to cross over that threshhold into sleep because the second I get close I get the zaps and they put me back into the awake state. Seroquel was like that little push I needed to force my brain across the barrier. I want to start being more consistent about doing guided sleep meditations with my Headspace app that are supposed to help calm your mind and get it ready for sleep, in hopes that over a little time my brain will relearn to associate bed with being calm. The only problem is that our bedroom is so noisy that I have to sleep with earplugs in or I will be woken up way too early. I'm not so sure how to listen to a guided meditation with earplugs in without having my phone up extremely loud... lol

[frog]

The cycle is: tyrosine converts to L-Dopa to dopamine to norepinephrine and then epinephrine (adrenaline). 

 

Stressors stimulate the sympathetic nervous system which causes the release of catecholamines such as norepinephrine, serotonin, cortisol, and adrenaline from the medulla of the adrenal gland. 

 

You may be 10 months off Cymbalta but you have been cutting back on Seroquel, Gabapentin...

 

This is to be expected for probably another 2 to 4 months.

 

So most likely my body still feels stressed out and is overproducing adrenaline and cortisol which are then floating around with nowhere to go and driving me crazy? Unfortunately given the state of the world it's hard to exert too much control over the stress so I guess I'm stuck in a stress feedback loop. I wonder if just by trying to be a bit more active I can break the stress cycle. Not exactly groundbreaking, I know exercise is commonly suggested for stress and anxiety management but I've never felt like I needed it before. I also hate exercise... lol. 

 

None of my doctors really acknowledge that I could have any issues stopping such low doses of seroquel or gabapentin. And I really did not have any issues with either one. Are you saying I could be experiencing some kind of rebound effect now that I'm off the gabapentin? 

[fishinghat]

The withdrawal from gabapentin sometimes lasts up to a couple months after the last dose. Unluckily drs don't often realize that most people may not suffer a withdrawal from a low dose gabapentin your situation is 10 months after coming off Cymbalta and still weaning Seroquel. Your nerves are still very hypersensitive at this stage. Most drs recommend 2 years between withdrawals in order for your body to recover before starting the next withdrawal. You will be Ok but it will take some time. 

[frog]

Just strange that I would have no side effects until the very last drop from 100mg to 0. I'm pretty sure they only prescribe that little to animals. It just makes me sensitive because sleep has been the one thing that's been very reliable for me for the past months and I was pretty certain that the gabapentin wasn't doing anything for that and now I'm concerned that it was. I'm going to add melatonin and some magnesium into my nighttime routine to help get over the hump hopefully. 

Do you think I should go back to 100mg gabapentin a night or just stick it out until it calms back down

[fishinghat]

Try the melatonin first as magnesium can actually cause anxiety if you blood levels are elevated. If possible I would wait it out. Try to hang in there around 2 months if you can. 

[frog]

So frustrated with the remaining effects of the withdrawal. Mainly sleep. I still take 1 Seroquel pill right before bed to help with falling asleep. Majority of nights I'm able to fall asleep without a problem with the medication. I usually stay asleep about 6 hours on average, sometimes 7. Far from amazing because I always wake up very groggy and not rested but it's... tolerable? I guess. But once a week or so the Seroquel fails and I can't fall asleep and I just lie there tossing and turning getting increasingly more anxious about the fact that I'm not falling asleep. I've tried breathing/counting breaths, imagining a relaxing scene, trying to tell myself to NOT fall asleep (reverse psychology to try to take some of the anxiety away). Often this eventually works, or occasionally I've gotten up and take melatonin and then seemingly fall asleep soon thereafter. Last night I couldn't sleep at all. Not a wink. I was sleepy and tired by the time I closed my eyes and then... I just lay there... for hours. Melatonin did nothing. I ended up just being anxious and on edge especially as the morning hours came. 

 

I think some of this is related to alcohol. My tolerance for alcohol is SO BAD now. One drink is usually ok, 2 is probably the max. Anything above that and I feel "drunk" for hours (mostly my head will feel spinny and I can feel my speech be a bit slurry even though I feel pretty clear otherwise), hungover for at least a full day after and my anxiety definitely spikes. I did drink yesterday, about a drink per hour I'd say roughly? But I was done by like 4 or 5pm. 

 

Anyway I'm just upset that almost a year out the sleep is still screwed up. What is causing it to still be like this? Will it get better on its own? Did my brain forget how to sleep? I want to get off the Seroquel but it doesn't feel like I'll ever be able to.

[fishinghat]

Alcohol during withdrawal, especially benzo withdrawal is a big no no. If you look at the data in the ebook you will se that it effects over a dozen neurotransmitters (if my memory serves me correctly). So many members have had difficulties with it and could tolerate none at all.

[invalidusername]

Alcohol during withdrawal, especially benzo withdrawal is a big no no. If you look at the data in the ebook you will se that it effects over a dozen neurotransmitters (if my memory serves me correctly). So many members have had difficulties with it and could tolerate none at all.

 

You remember last Christmas Hat? I had a mulled wine and then a glass of red thinking it would be ok - just for Christmas... and that was it. A good 2 or 3 days of hell followed.

 

Frog - I feel so much for you my dear. I'm quite sure one cannot "forget" how to sleep, but anxiety will sure be a factor, and meditation helped me a lot when I had my bouts of sleeplessness. It is just letting things be rather than reverse psychology I feel. The more you are aware that you are not sleeping, need to sleep, want to sleep... the worse it becomes. It is only when you just get to the "f**k it" moment that it happens. 

 

Was like that with the anxiety. I just told my anxiety to bring it on. Don't care. If this is how it is going to be, then just do it. I still have to live, so I might as well make the most with what I've been dealt.

[frog]

Thanks guys. I'm not on any benzos fortunately but I definitely seem to be more sensitive to alcohol than I used to be. It varies, sometimes I don't have much fallout from a couple drinks, sometimes it makes me feel very uncomfortable and agitated and feeling hungover for a day or more. 

 

The sleep thing I just can't figure out at all. I used to sleep A LOT, too much probably. Now there's just some inner agitation that won't let me fall asleep and won't let me stay asleep for all that long. Last night I figured I would sleep for a long time after being awake for like 36 hours, but I slept about 7ish and woke up in that funny mix of alert/groggy that I've gotten very used to. 

 

You're right IUN it's the anxiety that prevents me from falling asleep. I close my eyes and my brain starts speeding up instead of slowing down and I have no idea how to quiet it back down. I also don't really understand why I wake up agitated. The overall adrenaline levels have obviously dropped a lot between where I started 11 months ago and now, but maybe they still haven't dropped low enough. Do people who experience insomnia as a result of Cymbalta withdrawal tend to get over it? Can it take a long time like in my case? It just doesn't seem like my ability to fall asleep is in my control right now. It feels like the adrenaline is just high enough at night that I can't completely relax

[fishinghat]

Even though you have seen an improvement in anxiety it still has a way to go for you. 11 months is a longer time than most but I have seen some who take 14 or 15 months to start sleeping well but that is unusual. Sorry, I don't remember but have you tried Suntheanine an hour or so before bedtime?

[invalidusername]

...or if we are talking strictly biological, some beta blockers to bring the elevated adrenaline down?

 

Apologies if this has already been covered - long day and can't remember entire history.

[frog]

I take suntheanine in the mornings. I'm not sure if it's even doing anything, I figured I would stop once I finished this bottle of it. I can definitely try to switch to evenings instead and see if that helps. I clearly still have a lot of anxiety somewhere inside that my brain chooses to bring out when it's time to sleep. No matter how sleepy I am when I'm heading to bed, when I close my eyes to try to fall asleep my brain starts dwelling on every single thought. That kind of dwelling was happening a lot during the daytime over the last 11 months and resulted in all the panic attack issues I was having. Now during the daytime the thoughts still come and go sometimes but there's no more panicked feeling. At nighttime though the thoughts seem to still illicit a more physical reaction I guess

[frog]

I was taking beta blockers when I was having all the panic issues. I was still having insomnia then :/ And the beta blockers would make me dizzy and lightheaded from time to time, especially when doing any kind of exercise. Didn't like that at all. 

 

Up until a couple months ago I was taking 300mg of gabapentin in the evenings to help with sleep. They may or may not have allowed me to sleep a bit longer but other than that I haven't noticed a huge difference with or without them. 

 

Melatonin helps sometimes if I'm having some trouble falling asleep even with the Seroquel but I don't think it's enough on its own. I didn't have too many issues dropping the Seroquel from 2 pills down to 1 but with sleep being shakey at 1 pill I'm afraid to go down any further. 

 

BTW I'm also suuuper tired every day. Even if I sleep 7 hours I feel drained when I wake up. Not sure if it's because the anxiety is keeping my brain from fully resting up or maybe the Seroquel prevents that good, rejuvenating deep sleep, or what. Every morning is kind of a struggle. 

[invalidusername]

The tired will be because of all the anxiety that is going on. Just because it is "brain muscle" being used, you still feel the exhaustion the same as if you went for a run. I am the same after I do any amount of research. I might as well done a half marathon. I am exhausted - physically more than mentally. 

 

It really sounds like you have done the rounds with all the meds. I really don't like to sound like I advocate it, but this is when I reached for the Kratom. As I have said to a couple of others on the forum, I am happy to give impartial advice, but I can say that after over a year using it, I am still as fit as a butcher's dog, and have no trouble controlling the so-called addiction. I am still taking it as and when the same as I was last year.

[frog]

Thanks IUN, I think I'm too scared of anything like that.

 

The anxiety has been quite low the past few weeks, but today it's higher than it's been in a little while. Work has been stressful on and off for the last 2 months. I'm completely beat by 5pm every day and feel anxious 9-5 while I'm working. On the weekends I feel more relaxed because I don't think about work at all. 

 

I'm frustrated because I never dealt with anxiety to this extent before Cymbalta (or insomnia for that matter) so I'm mad at myself for going on this medication that quite honestly feels like has screwed up my body in a permanent way. 

From what I've read Seroquel is not known to be habit forming as a sleep aid, but I can't help but wonder if my brain has become used to not having to put in any effort to go to sleep. Maybe the only way forward is to drop the Seroquel and have some sleepless nights until the brain remembers, but that just sounds awwwwwful. I know marijuana is a popular sleep aid, but it tends to make me think too much and can cause more anxiety as a result. I feel stuck!

[Mxpro32]

Thanks IUN, I think I'm too scared of anything like that.

 

The anxiety has been quite low the past few weeks, but today it's higher than it's been in a little while. Work has been stressful on and off for the last 2 months. I'm completely beat by 5pm every day and feel anxious 9-5 while I'm working. On the weekends I feel more relaxed because I don't think about work at all. 

 

I'm frustrated because I never dealt with anxiety to this extent before Cymbalta (or insomnia for that matter) so I'm mad at myself for going on this medication that quite honestly feels like has screwed up my body in a permanent way. 

From what I've read Seroquel is not known to be habit forming as a sleep aid, but I can't help but wonder if my brain has become used to not having to put in any effort to go to sleep. Maybe the only way forward is to drop the Seroquel and have some sleepless nights until the brain remembers, but that just sounds awwwwwful. I know marijuana is a popular sleep aid, but it tends to make me think too much and can cause more anxiety as a result. I feel stuck!

it is so frustrating.  hearing you say you never had these issues before too is interesting.  I never had any sleep issues before cymbalta withdrawals.  I could sleep as long as I wanted.  I could literally drink an energy drink and fall asleep no problem.  I definitely never had issues staying asleep, thats why its so frustrating popping awake way too early.  we'll see if my sleep gets better after a while being off the klonopin, but I'm not very hopeful, considering the insomnia is why I started it in the first place.  I slept 4 hours last night with multiple interruptions.  I feel exhausted.  I know the feeling of alert/groggy you describe as well as its most of my waking hours.  super tired and wired at the same time.  its really hard not to worry that this is permanent.  its getting me depressed again.  I'm going to have a new baby in a few  months and I was really hoping to get to a somewhat balanced state before he gets here so I can feel the joy.  nothing brings me joy lately.  everything feels like a drain and gives me anxiety. 

[fishinghat]

Mxpro

 

Congratulations on the upcoming blessing. As I am sure you know, pregnancy is hard on the neurotransmitter balance. For me, I could start feeling better a few weeks after a drop in klonopin and in a few months you should be doing a lot better. The sleep? Well with never having been pregnant (lol) I don't really know how that will complicate things. Good luck.

[invalidusername]

Frog... One thing I can tell you, that if you have been partial the leaf before, then Kratom is nothing to fear, except the addiction. If you feel that you may be subject to the addictive properties, then best to stay well away. But believe me when I tell you that I have read just about everything written about the stuff before I went near it. I would never put my body through anything that I felt would cause it any harm... he says having taken Cymbalta!!

 

I do feel that Cymbalta has scarred me with my jerks and seizures. Almost 2 years off the stuff now and I still get both. The most irritating thing is that I get the jerks most often when I try to wind down, or when I meditate. It is SO f-ing annoying. Try to relax when you keep twitched every few seconds. It ain't easy! It does settle down, but takes a good 20-25 minutes of meditation before it does, depending on how stressed the day/week has been. I wish there was something that could cure that, much like your sleep. Not nearly as bad as you case of sleep, but I do often wonder what the C has done to me.

 

MX - my poor dear friend. You are Frog are like two peas in a pod. It was really hard to read your post, but I have been there, albeit not for as long, but it brings back frightful memories. Never forget that the brain is built on neuroplasticity, and has the ability to change and adapt all the time we are alive. Nothing is permanent with the brain. I sincerely wish you all the best with the latest trial. Keep us posted.

 

God Bless you both.

[Mxpro32]

Mxpro

Congratulations on the upcoming blessing. As I am sure you know, pregnancy is hard on the neurotransmitter balance. For me, I could start feeling better a few weeks after a drop in klonopin and in a few months you should be doing a lot better. The sleep? Well with never having been pregnant (lol) I don't really know how that will complicate things. Good luck.

Thanks, but I'm not pregnant, my wife is, lol.

[invalidusername]

Thanks, but I'm not pregnant, my wife is, lol.

 

Now that's just being a bit selfish isn't it MX....

[frog]

I had ZERO problems with sleep before withdrawals. If anything I slept wayyyyy too much. Same as you I could easily go for a multi hour nap when I would get home after work and I would sleep through the night and practically until noon on a weekend. I love being in my bed and sleeping lol

 

I think the sleeping issues I'm having now all stem from anxiety and stress, and my body's subpar ability to deal with both. There's too much excitement/anxiety somewhere in there that I can't unwind enough to drift off or to stay there. Tired but wired is exactly right. It's a vicious cycle too because when you're sleep deprived your body produces more cortisol. Elevated cortisol can aggravate anxiety. Anxiety makes sleeping difficult. And on and on and on. I'm trying some more natural options now. The past couple nights I'm trying to step up my sleep hygiene. Trying to move around more during the day, no TV/computer for at least an hour before bed, meditate in the evening (this one's a mixed bag because it makes me super sleepy lol), I took Suntheanine and Ashwaghanda last night too, along with the Seroquel, and went to bed early around 11pm. I fell asleep just fine but then woke up 2 hrs later and had to go to the bathroom. I was so upset because I figured that was going to be it, but I actually fell asleep again quickly and stayed asleep until 7:30am! WOOHOO! So 8 hours with one small interruption. It felt so good. Maybe it was a coincidence but I'll keep trying it and see. 

 

I was thinking of reaching out to a doctor for some advice with the sleep, but I think he's just going to offer me SSRIs AGAIN. I think he believes that solving the anxiety will solve the sleep problem. Maybe he's right. It certainly sounds easier to take a magic pill and make the anxiety go away vs trying all this other stuff, so it's tempting, but I'm also really terrified of ever going through what I went through again. If I did take something like Prozac it would be at a tiny dose and for a short amount of time, just to get over this hump. In any case I'm just bummed thinking that now I have an anxiety disorder that requires treatment. I've always had anxiety but before Cymbalta life was totally manageable.