727 replies to this topic

[frog]

I think that sounds reasonable. Would I alternate: so take off 1/4 in the morning for a week, so 1.75 pills in the morning and 2 evening. Then next week 1.75 in the morning and 1.75 in the evening? And so on? Or take 1/4 off both morning and evening at the same time

[fishinghat]

"Would I alternate: so take off 1/4 in the morning for a week, so 1.75 pills in the morning and 2 evening. Then next week 1.75 in the morning and 1.75 in the evening? And so on?"

That is it. If you go a couple weeks without symptoms we can probably make it a little faster too.

[invalidusername]

All sounds like a plan to me. Very useful to have people like Hat who has "been there, done that". Not forgetting that the combination of meds may vary symptoms one way or the other, so slow is always favourable in case it becomes difficult.

 

As Hat said, it may be that it works in your favour, but you need at least a couple of weeks of this pattern prior to increasing. As MX has found out over the last 24 hours, these things can strike as and when they want to at different severities.

 

Thoughts are with you both.

[frog]

Thanks guys.

FH I went back and read your comment where you said the prop should take 8 weeks. If I do 1/4 of a pill at a time, that would actually be 16 weeks. That feels very long. It feels like I should be doing 1/4 of a pill less from both morning and evening to keep things steady? That would be 8 weeks then. 

[fishinghat]

You can try that and if it does bite then you can remain at that dose for about a week or two, things will stabilize and then proceed slowler.

[frog]

So I accidentally made myself a guinea pig yesterday. Forgot to take my morning pills: my 1 remaining bead of Cymbalta, and the 20mg propranolol. I didn't realize until 8pm when I went to take my second dose of prop and noticed the morning pills were still in the box 

 

I did have a weird lightheadedness spell at one point during the day while I was at work. I came back from the bathroom and sat down in my chair and suddenly felt incredibly woozy. I've had this happen before but not for at least a few weeks now. Anyway I almost went home for the day to lie down but I drank some water and it all went away and didn't come back. No idea if that was related to forgetting my pills, but other than that I didn't feel anything out of the ordinary which I think is a good thing! It definitely makes me more confident about tapering down the propranolol because I've been feeling a bit wary of what I might find when I stop taking it. 

[fishinghat]

Probably from missing the pills. Good sign you should be able to handle weaning the Propranolol.

[frog]

In an effort to not repeat past Cymbalta mistakes I was searching on the Internet for any additional advice on taper schedules for Propranolol, just so I could arm myself with as much knowledge as possible. I was really disappointed to find very little. Tons of links all warning to make sure to taper beta blockers to avoid spikes in heart rate/bp but hardly anything to advise on what that means with regard to how much to drop at a time or timing. These drugs have been around for decades, how is there not a clearly defined best practice to quit them... 

[fishinghat]

The drs I have talked to about this usually wean people of beta blockers over a 2 to 4 week period but of course most of those people are not going through withdrawal either.  lol

 

Yes, a lot of research on the use and effectiveness of medication and little research on the dynamics of coming off those same medications. Sad.

[frog]

Wow I really feel like a little child relearning how to cope with life's knocks. Last night my husband and I spontaneously went out for a drink and a movie with a friend. I was really proud of myself for being able to go and not even feeling too anxious about it. Made me feel like I'm getting closer to being back to my normal self. Then after the movie, we decided to get one more drink before heading home. When we got to the place my husband accidentally bumped into me pretty hard and I went flying and fell down. I wasn't really hurt but I immediately started crying. I was so taken aback by that reaction! What's that all about? 

[Mxpro32]

I know the feeling. It's making me realize how complicated emotional regulation really is.

[frog]

Today's my last day of Cymbalta, round 2. I'm a little underwhelmed to be honest. When I thought about this day a couple months ago it seemed like a huge milestone, but now that it's here, it's kind of lackluster. I guess that's probably a good thing and means these last beads aren't doing anything!

 

Going to give it a couple weeks and then start it on the propranolol. I think the prop isn't doing a whole lot anymore as I didn't really notice much of a difference the day I forgot to take it except with getting more lightheaded. I'm curious to see if my breathing improves when I'm off. My breathing isn't terrible but every so often throughout the day I need to take a really really deep, hard breath. I've read that beta blockers can narrow airways in your lungs. Looking forward to continuing to empty out my pill box!

 

I still can't fall asleep on my own, and I still feel more tense than is normal (see my earlier post about bursting into tears after falling). I'm getting discouraged by what feels like a lack of further progress. I don't know if progress just slows down after a while, or it's because I'm not having tremendously bad days pretty much at all anymore so the difference between good and bad is less perceptible than it was before. I used to have "great" days once in a while that made me excited for the future of this process, and I thought those great days would start coming faster and I would have more in a row but they still seem to be 1 maybe 2 per week. 

 

Does this all seem typical for this stage? Is it still fair to assume that these meh days are going to eventually start turning into better days? I'm thinking that if I've experienced better/easier/more relaxed days than these meh days, that should mean that my brain is capable of producing them and is going to continue working toward them. I'd appreciate any reassurance about this

[fishinghat]

Typical.  Most start feeling a steady improvement around 4 to 6 months off. You went ery slow and careful though so I am more optimistic about your turn around.

[frog]

I've definitely seen huge improvement over the course of the last few months. If I look back at my notes from Christmas which was when I started to taper my 7 beads, things were still very rough. It's definitely night and day between then and now, that much I'm sure of. I guess I hope in another couple months when I look back on today, I can say the same thing. I guess I figured that once the worst was behind me, I would start seeing the progress speed up, but it seems like it's as slow as ever! Maybe slower!

[Mxpro32]

I feel ya. I was having a lot of great days before my setbacks. Lately it's all meh all the time with varying degrees of depression and anxiety. I guess I'm kind of being greedy compared to how bad I used to feel, but like you, I know I'm capable of really feeling good and normal. I'm starting to suspect the Klonopin in my case. I think it's numbed and dulled everything. I can't wait to get off of everything too. The Klonopin, the Ritalin, everything. Congrats on your last dose! I suspect you won't have the crazy withdrawals I had after my last dose because you tapered properly. Hopefully you just keep getting steadily better.

[frog]

Everything's been totally meh! I've been fortunate that the panic attacks and severe anxiety seem to have greatly diminished and what's left feels tolerable day to day and I can for the most part do what I want to do and not worry too much about possibly feeling really bad. On the other hand I don't want to just feel meh. I know that even before all this I wasn't a super relaxed person, and as my therapist advised maybe to some extent my expectations don't necessarily match what reality was like. But I still know that I was a happier person than I currently am and that's what I miss the most. But it's hard to feel happy when you feel tense and tense is what I feel like now. 

It's very possible that your other meds are making things harder for you. Brain drugs can mess with all sorts of things that nobody can predict. 

 

I'm very optimistic that I won't have any issues from being done with Cymbalta (a second time!) because I really learned my lesson from the first time, which caused all this nonsense in the first place. I too hope that little by little things keep getting better. I think they will for you as well, we just have to trust the process, which I'm finding to be the hardest part. 

[Mxpro32]

Just think when you were in the worst of it how greatfull you would have been to be meh. Thats what I try to remind myself.

[frog]

Very true but now I am greedy and feeling so close but so far. I'm also wondering if the Seroquel is responsible for my flatness of mood. Since it's a sedative and technically prescribed for bipolar as a mood stabilizer it would make sense that it would induce flatness but then again I only take 50mg so I don't know if it's enough to induce that kind of side effect. FH any thoughts? 

 

I wish I could just get off the Seroquel but sleep is more precious than feeling flat so I have to wait until I'm certain I can fall asleep on my own before tapering this one. 

[Mxpro32]

I think the progress has been super slow all along, we just expect it to go faster as we start feeling better, especially when we've tasted the good life. Remember back to the days of misery though. You would have a few days of not feeling terrible and that would get your hopes up too, only to be disappointed when you slid back into misery. I know as I feel better I start feeling like I should be able to control things more and speed up the process, when in reality it's probably still just a game of patience while things keep healing. Not knowing what i have control over has been really frustrating going through this.

[frog]

I think the progress has been super slow all along, we just expect it to go faster as we start feeling better, especially when we've tasted the good life.

 

I've been thinking this same thought. I think it's spot on. In my head I expected that once I turned the corner things would naturally speed up as if it's all downhill from here, so I think now I'm having to adjust my expectations and going through the process of coping with disappointment and trying to accept all over again. It took me almost 4 months just to turn the corner, so it's probably fair to accept that progress is still going to take weeks, not days.

 

I think it's also a scary process because there is no roadmap, no concrete milestones, it's just a giant blank and you just have to believe. That is a hard thing to do. So I'm super proud of all of us on this forum for continuing to stick with it.  

[fishinghat]

Frog

"Since it's a sedative and technically prescribed for bipolar as a mood stabilizer it would make sense that it would induce flatness but then again I only take 50mg so I don't know if it's enough to induce that kind of side effect. FH any thoughts? "

Absolutely.

Also, quick question. What does "meh" mean?

[invalidusername]

Hey Frog - sorry for silence my end - very very busy last few days and little sleep. Very much zombiefied at present.

 

Awesome on the spontaneous movie and drink. This is a good way to get the anxiety under control to start, but it is the planning in advance that can be difficult as you have time to start worrying, and then you start thinking how to get out of it should anything happen....

 

Also don't get caught up in how many great days you have a week. All the "normal" other people around us only have "great" days every few days. Pressures of work, money, relationships etc... great days are just that, but they don't come around that often for all. Be mindful of what your life was like before all this. During the day, I could get a bit down about work, and evenings was more of the high, and that is still the case - this is "normal". Rarely do people jump out of bed, salute the sun and bounce off to the kitchen for their cereal... only a game show host

 

Seroquel could indeed dull the feelings - not uncommon. But as you say, better of two evils - but short term...

[invalidusername]

Hat - "meh" denotes ones feeling blazé - very difficult and strenuous to find enjoyment. Not depressed per se, just an overall feeling of I'm alright, just can't be bothered with anything. I'll just sit on the sofa, watch some trash on TV and that'll do.

 

The "meh" comes from the sound one makes to signify the feeling, like an emotional onomatopoeia if you will.

[frog]

Perfect description IUN. 

 

Well maybe when I stop the Seroquel I'll find my mood lift naturally. I definitely understand that most days for most people are pretty middle of the road, it's just evenings and weekends that are more uplifting, but for now even those aren't really all that happy and relaxed. There's definitely still an aspect of 'pushing through' whatever tension/resistance I feel in my body in order to do something and so it's hard to really feel enjoyment. Then again maybe it's the flatness from Seroquel that's not allowing me to fully experience enjoyment. I wasn't sure if the little dose I'm taking could actually have so much effect, but I guess anything is possible! 

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, for me my "great" days weren't an ecstatic feeling. Just days where I wasn't burdened by depression or anxiety, and could generally go about my day and feel somewhat content with appropriate emotions. I even had frustrations, etc. But they were appropriate.

[frog]

Yes exactly right. The feeling of contentment and ease is missing. I hope you start to regain it as you come off the Klonopin. 

[invalidusername]

Welcome to the enigma that is the brain guys!!

[frog]

Dropping in on my own thread to update!

 

I completed the taper of my reinstated 7 beads two weeks ago! WOOHOO!

 

As of Monday I'm starting in on the propranolol taper. I would really prefer to start with the Seroquel because I think its mood stabilizer effects are making me feel apathetic and less able to find any joy in anything at a time when it's extra important to do so! But I still think my sleep cycle is a mess so I'm going to wait a little longer.

 

Anyway, For now I dropped by 2.5mg morning and afternoon so I'm taking 17.5mg each. I haven't noticed much, but I did have some heart pounding yesterday late afternoon/evening that went away after I took my evening dose. It wasn't super oppressive but as you all can relate, I'm still hyper sensitive to any physical changes. Seems unlikely that it would be from the prop. drop with how small the decrease was but who knows! As long as nothing else really comes up, I'm going to drop another quarter next week and from then I'll start dropping half a pill a week, so it would be 5 weeks total until 0. FH does that seem ok? 

 

Anyway, overall I'm doing probably at least 80% better than I was 5 months ago. Most of the physical adrenaline effects are pretty much gone. The panic attack phase seems to be over. I'm still not able to fall asleep on my own. When I try to close my eyes and relax and drift off, it's almost like my mind starts speeding up and it starts to gather up all the negative, pessimistic thoughts it can come up with, which of course amps up my anxiety, so no dice on fully relaxing. Trying to remain hopeful that this will still improve with some more time and I can manage to fall asleep again on my own. 

 

I think I'm definitely still having waves but they're much subtler and they're largely about my overall emotional state than anything physical. A bad day now means feeling super negative and pessimistic about EVERYTHING and irritable and easily triggered to start crying. Nothing feels good, it's just doom and gloom. Then on another day the veil lifts and I feel a little more positive and hopeful again. Does this sound about right? And can I expect this to keep moving away from the uncontrollable doom and gloom feelings? 

[invalidusername]

Hey Frog - good to hear from you. Wondering where you had gone!

 

Awesome about the final push - truly well done, but are you sure you want to go too far in with the next? Not even give yourself a small break? It is far from the ideal time at the moment and stresses will be high. Obviously you know best - and maybe the fact that you are still on the prop is stress in itself. We're all here for you regardless.

 

I think it is a case of suck it and see. 5 weeks may be about right, but the answer will lie in the first coupe. Hat may have more to add, but this is just my 10 cents.

 

The times either side of sleep/wake cycle are always the last to go - always. So give yourself some space on that front. Mine has started to creep back in due to this damn lockdown, so I am trying my best to keep stresses at bay - and yes, I am sure they can still happen even if I am not leaving the flat!! LOL

 

The waves are just as you say. The curve will flatten as time moves on.

 

IUN

[Mxpro32]

Dropping in on my own thread to update!

 

I completed the taper of my reinstated 7 beads two weeks ago! WOOHOO!

 

As of Monday I'm starting in on the propranolol taper. I would really prefer to start with the Seroquel because I think its mood stabilizer effects are making me feel apathetic and less able to find any joy in anything at a time when it's extra important to do so! But I still think my sleep cycle is a mess so I'm going to wait a little longer.

 

Anyway, For now I dropped by 2.5mg morning and afternoon so I'm taking 17.5mg each. I haven't noticed much, but I did have some heart pounding yesterday late afternoon/evening that went away after I took my evening dose. It wasn't super oppressive but as you all can relate, I'm still hyper sensitive to any physical changes. Seems unlikely that it would be from the prop. drop with how small the decrease was but who knows! As long as nothing else really comes up, I'm going to drop another quarter next week and from then I'll start dropping half a pill a week, so it would be 5 weeks total until 0. FH does that seem ok? 

 

Anyway, overall I'm doing probably at least 80% better than I was 5 months ago. Most of the physical adrenaline effects are pretty much gone. The panic attack phase seems to be over. I'm still not able to fall asleep on my own. When I try to close my eyes and relax and drift off, it's almost like my mind starts speeding up and it starts to gather up all the negative, pessimistic thoughts it can come up with, which of course amps up my anxiety, so no dice on fully relaxing. Trying to remain hopeful that this will still improve with some more time and I can manage to fall asleep again on my own. 

 

I think I'm definitely still having waves but they're much subtler and they're largely about my overall emotional state than anything physical. A bad day now means feeling super negative and pessimistic about EVERYTHING and irritable and easily triggered to start crying. Nothing feels good, it's just doom and gloom. Then on another day the veil lifts and I feel a little more positive and hopeful again. Does this sound about right? And can I expect this to keep moving away from the uncontrollable doom and gloom feelings? 

It’s been interesting being on this journey at about the same pace.  To see where we were and where we are now about has tears in my eyes.  It seemed like it took forever and went really quick.  I still have a lot of issues, but I’m worlds better than I was and it sounds like you are too. We were both pretty scared, miserable and desperate.  I imagine soon we will really be doing well and I look forward to it.