727 replies to this topic

[Polly38]

I love that description. Thanks Hat - I'll hold onto that😁. Literally!

Polly

[frog]

Hi Polly!

I cold turkeyd from about 18mg back in October. Did ok for a few weeks, then got crazy anxiety and adrenaline and updosed to 7 beads of cymbalta daily to try to take the edge off. This is week 13 since that started and I'm down to 3 beads as of Tuesday. Dropping a bead every 2 weeks now just to be safe so hopefully will be in the 0 club by mid March.  

 

I still have breathing issues pretty frequently, the past 2 days straight I've been feeling like I can't expand my chest enough to take in a deep breath. I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's related to inner tension which is related to constantly being "on watch" for any signs of impending panic and anxiety. Basically I feel like I haven't properly relaxed in 3 months. At first because I was in constant adrenaline mode due to messed up brain chemicals and now because I've become so sensitive to those physical feelings that I'm constantly tensed and scared of their impending return. It makes so much sense with everything we've been through that we would become sensitive like this. I think last week I had a few days in a row where for some reason I really felt relaxed and I slept much better those days. I think there is a connection. Last night too I slept well and I think it's because it gave me a lot of piece of mind yesterday to understand that I'm not permanently damaged with stress and anxiety from the withdrawal, but just highly sensitized from the experience and keeping myself way more wound up than I fully realized. My breathing is a bit better today too. I fully intend to start practicing surrender and acceptance to promote more peace and relaxation in my mind and then body. It sounds incredibly difficult I have to admit, but something tells me that once I relax I might find that there is far less anxiety there than I've built up in my scared mind. 

[frog]

"But how to separate chemical reaction from self-induced fear and panic? I'm having a hard time getting on with life as normal to be honest."

You can't separate the two as they are caused by the same chemical reaction. Whether your thoughts are stressing you OR the withdrawal the same neurotransmitters are involved. In general stress is stress. Like I said, it is just like riding a wild horse. You can't fight the horse, you can't control the horse you just have to relax and hold on until he gets worn out.

 

Totally get what you're saying. What I meant was how can I tell the difference between my brain just still putzing around and messing with chemical levels, and the self-induced conditioned response anxiety? The reason I'm wondering is because as we've discussed there's no way to control or prevent the brain's own chemical testing. On other hand the conditioned responses are within my control to reverse. I'm just feeling confused now because this whole time I thought my brain was still screwing around but now I feel like it's very possible that the worst is actually behind me and now I'm just a nervous wreck purely because of conditioned response because I'm noticing more patterns to my anxiety.

 

I'm far less anxious at work and capable of doing lots of things that scare the crap out of me on weekends and require A LOT more courage to get past the anxiety and worry. I've developed a lot of anxiety around being at home (especially if I'm home alone) since that's where I've felt my very worst in the beginnings of this withdrawal and that's where I continue to feel really vulnerable because of the lack of distractions like at work

[fishinghat]

"On other hand the conditioned responses are within my control to reverse."

There is the key. The cbt, yoga, meditation helps off set the conditioned responses some BUT as long as the withdrawal is effecting the amygdala and hippocampus, the centers for fear, OCD and paranoia, these conditioned responses will continue. Sucks doesn't it?

[frog]

That's what I'm trying to pinpoint I guess. Is there any way to know when the withdrawal effect is over? Does it feel different somehow? 

[fishinghat]

The withdrawal effect is over when all withdrawal symptoms have minimized and stabilized for at least 6 months.

 

Let me clarify that. Most members talk about feeling normal or almost normal at some point but usually state later there was still some slight improvement after that. So 95% of the improvement is accomplished at some point and another 5% improvement in the next 6 months or so. Remember 2 years for nerves to heal and adjust.

[Mxpro32]

That's the hardest part. You want so bad for your feelings and thoughts to have meaning. Your mind is trying to make sense of things in a way that gives it some control, so it's hard to accept that you don't have much control. It gets more complicated because you do control some things. It's really difficult to know what you can control and by how much. Personally, I work on trying to just be as I am, no matter how awful it feels, without fighting it. Accept however I am in this moment and try not to worry about the future or the timescale of my recovery. Every time I get impatient or question my recovery, anxiety gets much worse. Easier said than done. It's a practice. Same goes for when I'm feeling good. Just accept it as it is without trying to latch onto it.

[frog]

So there's really no way to know in the moment. Just retrospectively. I guess that makes sense.

 

That's the hardest part. You want so bad for your feelings and thoughts to have meaning. Your mind is trying to make sense of things in a way that gives it some control, so it's hard to accept that you don't have much control. It gets more complicated because you do control some things. It's really difficult to know what you can control and by how much. Personally, I work on trying to just be as I am, no matter how awful it feels, without fighting it. Accept however I am in this moment and try not to worry about the future or the timescale of my recovery. Every time I get impatient or question my recovery, anxiety gets much worse. Easier said than done. It's a practice. Same goes for when I'm feeling good. Just accept it as it is without trying to latch onto it.

 

Yes this is exactly what I'm struggling with. It is a hard lesson for me to just "be." Even before my Cymbalta-gate 2019 I was not a person who lived in the moment or let things go easily. So I guess this is a good lesson for all aspects of my life. I no longer feel like I'm in full blown withdrawal, so I think this is the right time to start working on my acceptance to cope better with the rest of the process. 

 

I really appreciate everyone's constant support and encouragement as I try to piece this together. 

 

MXPro and everyone else still working hard to get better: we can do this!

[Polly38]

I'm trying to live in the moment too but it's hard going and, for me, will take a lot of practice I think. Frog - I know what you mean about being better at work. I have come home this evening and the breathing issue seems worse. It doesn't matter what I do but I have absolutely no control over it. Meditation helps whilst I'm doing it but it returns after I stop.

I'm sure Hat is right when he says it's a chemical reaction which will burn itself out eventually. So I'm strapping myself in and going along with the journey!

Here's hoping it gets better for us all very soon! I'm so glad to have this forum to come to for advice and support so thank you!

Polly

[fishinghat]

You say that there are some things you can control and some you can't. Well that is because the areas you can control have healed enough to 'allow' control and the other areas have not healed that much.

 

Like IUN said, this is an injury. Just like a cut on the arm you can keep it clean, eat well and get rest but the bottom line is that you simply have to wait for it to heal. You try not to use that cut arm AN MORE THAN THE INJURY ALLOWS COMFORTABLY and you do what you can do, no more no less, until it is healed.

[invalidusername]

I really do understand what you are saying here Frog - telling the difference between what is your brain putzing around (that made me LOL!) and the withdrawal.

 

The problem is really that when your brain releases the chemicals that are associated with the anxiety, the body will react by design and you will be concerned about what your body is doing if nothing else - so you can feel that the anxiety is justified on that basis alone. 

 

I know that Hat and myself are coming across from a scientific-standpoint rather than a more therapeutic context, but it needs to be understood that it is not you doing this to yourself, otherwise it turns into a game of blaming yourself and lack of self-compassion etc which is in itself a problematic area.

 

Behind you all the way nonetheless. 

 

Have to say it is good to have the likes of MX, Polly etc to offer the more therapeutic side and the proverbial shoulder to cry on. I do try to incorporate that as much as I can, but have a firm belief that there is a lot of healing in understanding too....

 

Here's to a good weekend all round for y'all.

[Mxpro32]

You say that there are some things you can control and some you can't. Well that is because the areas you can control have healed enough to 'allow' control and the other areas have not healed that much.

Like IUN said, this is an injury. Just like a cut on the arm you can keep it clean, eat well and get rest but the bottom line is that you simply have to wait for it to heal. You try not to use that cut arm AN MORE THAN THE INJURY ALLOWS COMFORTABLY and you do what you can do, no more no less, until it is healed.

This is what I struggle with as I start to show some progress. As I feel a little better it's tempting to push myself, or be hard on myself for not functioning better, but I don't think it's helpful. Patience and time to heal is still the key.

[invalidusername]

Complaisance is a tough bullet to dodge at that point in withdrawal.  

[fishinghat]

"I know that Hat and myself are coming across from a scientific-standpoint rather than a more therapeutic context, but it needs to be understood that it is not you doing this to yourself, otherwise it turns into a game of blaming yourself and lack of self-compassion etc which is in itself a problematic area."

Well said sir.

[frog]

Thank you guys for ALL the input. I'm really working on the acceptance piece now. Luckily the last few days weren't too bad so they were easy to accept. 

 

Today I woke up with anxiety, which I'm guessing kind of answers my question on whether I'm still going through withdrawal anxiety. Trying really hard to not attach any meaning to it and just let it be. 

 

The past couple days I've also been extremely exhausted. I think it's more mental exhaustion than physical but not sure. We went on a walk around the botanic garden yesterday and I felt like a zombie for most of it. Not really enjoying it, just kind of plodding through it. Is this typical? It's almost like my brain and body have been so "on" and "engaged" for 3 months straight that I never felt exhausted because I was just constantly tense. And now it's like it's catching up to me. 

[Mxpro32]

For me, anywhere from anxious out of my mind, super depressed, or numb and checked out is normal. It's part of the brain calibrating. If I've been really anxious for a while and it lifts, there is a vacuum of numbness that usually swings to depression. I am just now getting to the point where I have windows of enjoying anything. For a long while my good days just meant I didn't feel terrible. I never had any intrinsic motivation to do anything. I'm starting to have Sparks of creativity and motivation at times. So yes, doing usually pleasurable activities without enjoying them is completely normal

[invalidusername]

Mental and physical exhaustion can often present themselves in the same way. As I have told many members, when your brain does overtime, it is no different than doing a workout at the gym. You still become exhausted. The brain uses food and sugar levels the same as the body does. So Frog, if you are doing BOTH - in that you are doing exercise AND your brainium is going 19 to the dozen, you will of course feel like a zombie. It is your brain and body telling you that they are needing a breather.

 

This is also why we tell members to not go all out on exercise during withdrawal thinking it will burn off the unwanted chemicals etc. You will hit burnout. 

 

You are doing the right thing in listening to your body. If it is telling you in needs a rest - give it what it wants.

 

The only thing that sucks, is that during rest, your brain is still going sometimes and you cannot switch it off and you want to do something physical to distract from it all - this is where the mindfulness and meditation comes in. Other than that, it is doing your best to hold it together.

 

I have exactly that going on this weekend. All week there has been stress with work, with noise from neighbours, stress looking after my wife, the Phenibut "incident", a BIG work meet, the water being turned off for 15 hours on Friday... I just needed the weekend. I have indeed stopped, but my brain just hasn't stopped spinning. Ideally you wind the week down so you have a bit of energy to walk, clean the car, see friends etc at the weekend, but it can't always be during these times. And this... finally.. is where the acceptance and self-compassion come in.

 

Woh - hold on a cotton-picking minute. Did I just hang up my white scientist's coat for a bit there?!

 

I am sorry...

[frog]

For me, anywhere from anxious out of my mind, super depressed, or numb and checked out is normal. It's part of the brain calibrating. If I've been really anxious for a while and it lifts, there is a vacuum of numbness that usually swings to depression. I am just now getting to the point where I have windows of enjoying anything. For a long while my good days just meant I didn't feel terrible. I never had any intrinsic motivation to do anything. I'm starting to have Sparks of creativity and motivation at times. So yes, doing usually pleasurable activities without enjoying them is completely normal

 

Thanks Mxpro. Today was better. We went on a couple mile hike and that made me feel a lot better. The fresh air and sunshine really makes a huge difference most of the time. Doesn't always work but my stomach was keeping it together today so it went well and it really lifted my mood for a few hours after even. Now I'm back to feeling a nervous energy like this morning. Oh well. Just have to take it as it comes right? 

 

Definitely looking forward to feeling real joy out of things more again. Totally get you on feeling like a good day is often just a day where you don't feel terrible. 

[frog]

IUN I hope your day has improved and you're getting some good rest. 

Definitely think yesterday was mental fatigue. I was less tired today but also had more anxious energy so I do wonder if they're related somehow. More adrenaline = not feeling the fatigue as much or something like that? 

[Mxpro32]

IUN I hope your day has improved and you're getting some good rest.
Definitely think yesterday was mental fatigue. I was less tired today but also had more anxious energy so I do wonder if they're related somehow. More adrenaline = not feeling the fatigue as much or something like that?

That seems to be the case with me. The adrenaline masks the exhaustion. Then if the adrenaline lifts, I crash into depression and exhaustion.

[Mxpro32]

I wonder if that's why I'm getting depressed when I exercise? Maybe I'm burning off the adrenaline that is stimulating me?

[fishinghat]

It could contribute.

[invalidusername]

MX is right on - the adrenaline can mask what is underneath, which is why people often crash without warning. 

 

All part and parcel of your brain cataloguing the levels required all over again.

[frog]

MX is right on - the adrenaline can mask what is underneath, which is why people often crash without warning. 

 

All part and parcel of your brain cataloguing the levels required all over again.

 

That's really how it feels. Recently the more "relaxed" I feel, the more exhausted I feel too. 

Unfortunately I can't take naps because my brain still won't allow it. Even if I'm lying in bed and start to feel drowsy and like I'm about to drift off my brain jerks me awake. Makes sense if I'm still in some amount of fight or flight mode. My nervous system is saying there's a threat so of course it would be dangerous to fall asleep at a time like that! Too bad there's no real threat and I'm just lying peacefully in bed.

 

But overall I'm sleeping better on average now. Often even when I wake up too early in the morning I can still fall back to sleep for just a bit longer. Both of my sleep aids (seroquel and gabapentin) have pretty short half lifes and there have been plenty of nights where they just haven't worked at all, so I'm hopeful that the slightly improved sleep is not related to the sleep aids and is just because things are settling down a bit more internally. 

[Mxpro32]

I have been following the guided meditations in that book I recommended, and this week's meditation is a mindful movement meditation. It basically just some simple stretches you do slowly and mindfully while focusing on your breath and body sensations. For some reason, I get super sleepy and can't stop yawning when I do it. I even cry sometimes. Its weird because the whole thing is so simple.

[invalidusername]

"Even if I'm lying in bed and start to feel drowsy and like I'm about to drift off my brain jerks me awake."

 

This is hypnic behaviour and often accompanies these states. It can be a body twitch, a feeling that you are falling, a thought... many things. It is a horrible feeling and have "been there, done that". My sincere sympathies - but it does go...

[frog]

Thanks IUN. That is encouraging. I am extremely excited for the day that I can nap again. 

[invalidusername]

No problem - it will happen, trust me. It is all part of withdrawal. If it were the type that was going to stick around, you'd have had it independent of the withdrawal already.

[frog]

after a solid streak of 5 nights sleeping 7 or 8 hours, I woke up last night after about 5 hours (around 4am) and then couldn't fall back asleep. My heart rate definitely seemed like it was up. Overall I just felt that restlessness feeling. I tried a sleep meditation, didn't help. I eventually started feeling sleepy again but as I would start feeling like I was falling asleep I would start "dreaming" and the dream was kind of unpleasant and then I would jerk awake with my heart going. It's really bizarre. I'm not really asleep so I'm not really dreaming, but it feels like I'm seeing a dream. 

 

Regardless. Super annoying. 

[Mxpro32]

I've been doing the same. I just have this uneasy restless feeling that is hard to describe. It wakes me up and it feels aweful. It's like a depression mixed with adrenaline and an almost chemical feeling sadness. I've cried a lot the last 2 days for seemingly no reason. Usually I cry and it's for a reason and feels good. This makes me feel hopeless.