727 replies to this topic

[invalidusername]

Had them before withdrawal. They got a little worse during first couple of weeks after hitting ground 0. 

 

Ever since I have been following Clare Weekes' method of controlling anxiety, I have not had any panic attacks.

[frog]

I've been meaning to look into her. I just downloaded the audiobook for Pass Through Panic and giving it a listen now. 

I think this withdrawal has been so difficult because all of these physical anxiety symptoms and panic attacks and whatnot are very new to me. So not only do they just generally feel bad, they are extra scary because I'm not accustomed to them. 

[frog]

OK IUN. I'm about halfway through the audiobook and wanted to share my thoughts and ask some questions as pertaining to withdrawal specifically since you've been through it yourself. 

 

(FH if you have any thoughts on the matter I would love your input as well)

 

First of all I got pretty worked up listening to her speak because she was literally describing everything I've been dealing with to a T. 

 

I'm fully on board with the idea that I'm now highly sensitized like she describes. The cold turkey caused an initial freak out in my brain/nerves and I'm now stuck in a loop of stoking the fire of panic and fear with constant panic and fear ABOUT the potential panic and fear. I'm certainly going to try to work on minimizing the "second fear" as she calls it, but my question is this: the consensus on this forum seems to be that almost all people eventually get past the anxiety brought on by the withdrawal. Does that mean that my nerves are still also just acutely affected by the cold turkey episode and that with time they will still settle back down on their own which will help alleviate the "second fear" along with it? Or have I simply created this feedback loop of sensitivity following the traumatic post-cold turkey nightmare and that is all that is plaguing me now?

 

I know you've said before that people who learn to 'accept' get better faster. I can see why after listening to this but I wonder if they would still get better eventually even if they were unable to fully 'accept'

[fishinghat]

You will get better. Yes you and your nerves become sensitized during the withdrawal but they do heal. There is a lot of new research out there suggesting that those who go through a long and/or severe withdrawal maintain some sensitivity to similar stressors in the future. In other words a little paranoid about drug interaction/withdrawal and side effects. That remaining sensitivity is no where what you are experiencing g now.

[Mxpro32]

Are your panic attacks set off by anything? Runaway thoughts or unexpected stressors? Meditation has all but eliminated panic attacks due to runaway thoughts. Unexpected stressors will set me off good though. I'm working on reducing the severity of the response as it wipes me out for a couple days.

[invalidusername]

The guys have a point here, but you are trapped in a state of panicking about panic. You are nervous about getting nervous.

 

This is very normal once your head has been in a state for a fixed period of time and it is a bit of a nightmare. Clare Weekes will help with everything, but this is something I questioned when I was going through it. 

 

Neurologists have a saying.. "neurons that fire together, wire together", meaning that when your brain keeps doing something, it develops a habit, so it has become a habit to EXPECT to be anxious. So when you aren't nervous, it feels it should be. You have been anxious more than you haven't.

 

Does this all sound right?

 

Let me know... we can work from there.

[frog]

Thank you as always for your input FH. I have felt like there are still moments where I feel flares of anxiety or panic or tenseness and they seem to be related to absolutely nothing at all. BUT while I think these are diminishing in frequency I'm finding that I still feel extremely tense and anxious most of the time because I'm essentially manifesting these feelings by being panicked about feeling terrible. This causes the physical symptoms to start going and once I feel those (now) familiar tensions, I start to spiral. I'm really questioning now if my withdrawal is now mostly behind me and I'm just too sensitized by that initial couple of months to let things calm down

[fishinghat]

"Neurologists have a saying.. "neurons that fire together, wire together", meaning that when your brain keeps doing something, it develops a habit, so it has become a habit to EXPECT to be anxious. So when you aren't nervous, it feels it should be. You have been anxious more than you haven't."

That is called a conditioned response.

[fishinghat]

Yup, frog. That is why a Chronic Adrenergic State (anxiety) is considered a conditioned response. It becomes a reflex action to release adrenaline at the slightest thing.

[frog]

Are your panic attacks set off by anything? Runaway thoughts or unexpected stressors? Meditation has all but eliminated panic attacks due to runaway thoughts. Unexpected stressors will set me off good though. I'm working on reducing the severity of the response as it wipes me out for a couple days.

 

Hi Mxpro! It's kind of 50/50 I think. When it comes to thoughts, it feels like it's almost a PEAK after some period of time (days sometimes) where I've worried here and there about feeling bad and it's almost like the tension builds and builds and builds and then the panic attack is almost a release. On the other hand, my stomach has been giving me a lot of trouble since day 1 of this and there have been numerous times where I've tried to go on a hike wtih my husband or go to a grocery store and suddenly my stomach will hurt or start churning and I get panicked about needing a bathroom where there is none and by then it's a self fulfilling thing and suddenly I'm totally panicked. Excuse all the TMI. 

 

I really don't know how to deal with the second problem. It's definitely getting in the way of doing a lot of things since I feel like I'm only comfortable if I'm at least in somewhat close proximity of a bathroom. That's the only way I can fully relax. Terrible. 

[Mxpro32]

Sounds like you really need to work on acceptance and meditation. That includes meditating even when you are anxious without trying to calm yourself down. Just practice "being" with whatever emotion or feelings are there without changing them. It's strange at first to just sit with your anxiety and accept it without fighting it, but it really takes its power away with time

I'm reading this book and following the guided meditations:.

https://www.amazon.c...x=mindfu&sr=8-5

[Mxpro32]

Hi Mxpro! It's kind of 50/50 I think. When it comes to thoughts, it feels like it's almost a PEAK after some period of time (days sometimes) where I've worried here and there about feeling bad and it's almost like the tension builds and builds and builds and then the panic attack is almost a release. On the other hand, my stomach has been giving me a lot of trouble since day 1 of this and there have been numerous times where I've tried to go on a hike wtih my husband or go to a grocery store and suddenly my stomach will hurt or start churning and I get panicked about needing a bathroom where there is none and by then it's a self fulfilling thing and suddenly I'm totally panicked. Excuse all the TMI.

I really don't know how to deal with the second problem. It's definitely getting in the way of doing a lot of things since I feel like I'm only comfortable if I'm at least in somewhat close proximity of a bathroom. That's the only way I can fully relax. Terrible.

I've had anxiety build until something bubbles up and makes me cry, then I feel better. Like unprocessed trauma that cymbalta had plastered over. Other times it's incessant. Some days it seems like anxiety is my bodies way of staying awake when I'm overly tired. Like a kid being hyperactive when they are tired.

[fishinghat]

Cymbalta withdrawal effects the hippocampus and amygdala, centers for fear, paranoia, OCD and worry. You can NOT think this away. Yes, things like meditation, CBT, yoga, etc helps but this is a chemical reaction that must run its course until the body adapts. You can NOT control yourself. It is like riding a wild horse. You just strap yourself in, relax and go for a ride.

[frog]

The guys have a point here, but you are trapped in a state of panicking about panic. You are nervous about getting nervous.

 

This is very normal once your head has been in a state for a fixed period of time and it is a bit of a nightmare. Clare Weekes will help with everything, but this is something I questioned when I was going through it. 

 

Neurologists have a saying.. "neurons that fire together, wire together", meaning that when your brain keeps doing something, it develops a habit, so it has become a habit to EXPECT to be anxious. So when you aren't nervous, it feels it should be. You have been anxious more than you haven't.

 

Does this all sound right?

 

Let me know... we can work from there.

 

IUN, this sounds very right. After listening to the audiobook and considering my own situation, I feel like a lot of my remaining anxiety might be self-inflicted now. I'm so used to getting anxiety flares that I'm constantly vigilant watching for any sign of those physical symptoms and it sounds like the stress of staying so vigilant is basically manifesting stress and anxiety where there isn't any. I hope it's not too late to break this cycle before it becomes too ingrained. 

[invalidusername]

"this is a chemical reaction that must run its course until the body adapts."

 

Hat has it right on above.

 

There is only so much one can do when it is a chemical state. Like I have said to so many people over the months, you have to try and get on with life as normal as best you can so that the brain understands what the default levels need to be. Meditation will help to a degree, but the long and the short is that it is something that needs time to get back in place. Unscrambling an egg doesn't happen over night. That isn't a neurologist's saying... that is one I just thought of... so the mad ramblings of a researcher who has worked too much today!

 

Mindfulness is great and MX.. that book... for sure - anything endorsed by Jon Kabat-Zinn is going to be good as he was the first man to bring mindfulness into the western world.

[frog]

Sounds like you really need to work on acceptance and meditation. That includes meditating even when you are anxious without trying to calm yourself down. Just practice "being" with whatever emotion or feelings are there without changing them. It's strange at first to just sit with your anxiety and accept it without fighting it, but it really takes its power away with time

I'm reading this book and following the guided meditations:.

https://www.amazon.c...x=mindfu&sr=8-5

I'm definitely still struggling to understand what it actually means to not fight the feelings. It hasn't totally clicked for me yet

[invalidusername]

Polly is going through something very similar at the moment Frog....

 

It is a b*stard, but it does go. I went through exactly the same thinking it would never stop.

[invalidusername]

Fighting the feelings...

 

You need to talk to LDN about this - read our log! We have spoken about this for such a long time. Drop him a PM, I am sure he will help.

 

He has mastered quite a bit of the "letting go" and often has some wise words. 

[frog]

"this is a chemical reaction that must run its course until the body adapts."

 

Hat has it right on above.

 

There is only so much one can do when it is a chemical state. Like I have said to so many people over the months, you have to try and get on with life as normal as best you can so that the brain understands what the default levels need to be. Meditation will help to a degree, but the long and the short is that it is something that needs time to get back in place. Unscrambling an egg doesn't happen over night. That isn't a neurologist's saying... that is one I just thought of... so the mad ramblings of a researcher who has worked too much today!

 

Mindfulness is great and MX.. that book... for sure - anything endorsed by Jon Kabat-Zinn is going to be good as he was the first man to bring mindfulness into the western world.

 

But how to separate chemical reaction from self-induced fear and panic? I'm having a hard time getting on with life as normal to be honest. At first it was because I had constant crazy anxiety. And I feel like that has seamlessly transitioned into constant anxiety ABOUT possibly getting anxiety and I almost didn't notice it because they're so very similar. 

[Mxpro32]

But how to separate chemical reaction from self-induced fear and panic? I'm having a hard time getting on with life as normal to be honest. At first it was because I had constant crazy anxiety. And I feel like that has seamlessly transitioned into constant anxiety ABOUT possibly getting anxiety and I almost didn't notice it because they're so very similar.

That's where the meditation helps. You can't stop the original anxiety and chemical mess, but you can learn to accept it and not make it worse by stressing and worrying about it.

[invalidusername]

I know what you are saying MX - but for a lot of people, that is like saying the same thing about an injury... "I know it hurts, just think through the pain". The pain is still there!! And it does a damn good job of reminding you too.

 

Just the same for anxiety of this type. It is an injury.... 

[frog]

What kinds of meditations are you doing? I was doing a lot of the 'basic' meditations on Headspace app. They were nice and I was learning about how to let thoughts come and go, but I was also never in any tense or anxious state while doing them. So I didn't find it to be super helpful I guess. 

[Mxpro32]

What kinds of meditations are you doing? I was doing a lot of the 'basic' meditations on Headspace app. They were nice and I was learning about how to let thoughts come and go, but I was also never in any tense or anxious state while doing them. So I didn't find it to be super helpful I guess.

.

I'm doing the mindfulness meditations included with the book. I haven't found the headspace meditations to be helpful. The mindfulness meditations are more about being with the body sensations without judging or trying to change them. Like feeling how miserable you feel without assigning additional meaning or stress or worry to it. It also grounds you in your body so you become aware of the physical sensations associated with the mental states. Like holding your breath when anxious. Then you can notice the breath holding, the muscle tension andfocus on breathing and relaxing the tense muscles and it alleviates some of the anxiety, or at least not make it worse

[Mxpro32]

I know what you are saying MX - but for a lot of people, that is like saying the same thing about an injury... "I know it hurts, just think through the pain". The pain is still there!! And it does a damn good job of reminding you too.

Just the same for anxiety of this type. It is an injury....

I know. It's awful. And the worst part is the lack of control or meaning to the misery. I didn't mean to imply you can think it away, just that I've found its definitely possible to make things worse by letting your mind go wild instead of doing your best to accept the sensations and your lack of control

[frog]

I think I've gotten much better at accepting my lack of control over it all, but I'm still struggling to not fight the sensations by trying to distract myself to get them to go away. I know Mxpro you're avoiding going in to your shop because of potential anxiety and stress. I'm the opposite. I've gone in to work almost every single day. There are so many distractions here that it keeps my brain occupied more. When I'm at home after work or on weekends I feel like my mind has too many opportunities to let anxiety in and I get scared that that's how a panic attack will slip through. I'm seeing more now that by expecting something bad to happen I'm actually helping to usher it in. It's hard to undo this pattern of thinking but I need to stop dreading being at home vs being at work. 

[Mxpro32]

I wish work distracted me. I just see unfinished product development and unfinished projects and it stresses me out. Working in a group might be helpful, but most of my work is self directed creative engineering, and I still don't have any intrinsic motivation to do anything. I have almost no will power and depression/anxiety shuts down my creativity. I think it's starting to flicker back on though. I worked for a few hours today on a product I've been developing.

[Polly38]

Frog, you sound as if you are going through exactly the same thing as me - from the stomach issues to being anxious about being anxious! Can you remind me how far into withdrawal you are? I've been off for nearly 10 weeks.

I feel like my body can't cope with anything out of the ordinary. Like you, I prefer going to work than staying at home as it keeps my mind occupied. Because I work in an office I am sat down most of the day and I know I hold myself in a tense position and then I ache all over - it's a vicious circle! I try to just let it be, but it's hard.

Polly

[fishinghat]

"you have to try and get on with life as normal as best you can so that the brain understands what the default levels need to be."

Absolutely

[fishinghat]

"But how to separate chemical reaction from self-induced fear and panic? I'm having a hard time getting on with life as normal to be honest."

You can't separate the two as they are caused by the same chemical reaction. Whether your thoughts are stressing you OR the withdrawal the same neurotransmitters are involved. In general stress is stress. Like I said, it is just like riding a wild horse. You can't fight the horse, you can't control the horse you just have to relax and hold on until he gets worn out.

[invalidusername]

I remember this horse metaphor from a post a long time ago - think it was FN. It is a good one...