1636 replies to this topic

[invalidusername]

Ooooh - and thanks Hat.

 

I was going to garnish my veg with paint thinner this evening, but will avoid having read the above

[fishinghat]

You laugh but one of our members in past years decided to varnish a table during their withdrawal and he had a horrible relapse that took a couple of weeks to subside. If it is not one thing then it is another.

[invalidusername]

Good grief... that is incredible....

[ForLyla]

I took pseudophderine mixed with an antihistamine the other day so maybe that's the culprit to my setback. I'm travelling for 2 weeks so it's hard to watch what I'm eating as well.

[fishinghat]

Do you remember what the antihistamine was?

Pseudoephedrine

Wiki
Patients who are prone to anxiety or panic attacks should use pseudoephedrine with caution, as anxiety and restlessness are common side effects, mostly due to the drug's stimulant properties. Pseudoephedrine should not be taken with beta-blockers.

 

http://www.sciencedi...080552323624882
Can cause anxiety as a side effect.

http://research.omic...Pseudoephedrine
Adverse effects
Common adverse drug reactions (ADRs) associated with pseudoephedrine therapy include: CNS stimulation, insomnia, nervousness, excitability, dizziness and anxiety. Infrequent ADRs include: tachycardia or palpitations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10999495
"...the drug tended to increase anxiety scores. Depth resulted in a significant increase in anxiety scores and a significant decrease in verbal fluency test scores."

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4518702/
Over-the-counter cold preparations contain phenylpropylamine and pseudoephedrine, obvious stimulants. Yet patients with unexplained dyspnea may believe they have allergies and take these medications frequently in order to treat their anxiety symptom, further exacerbating their dyspnea and anxiety symptoms. The use of energy drinks with combinations of both caffeine and stimulants is another important example.
And many more research articles....

http://www.ehealthme...loride/anxiety/
(FDA website)
140 people reported to have side effects when taking Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride.
Among them, 12 people (8.57%) had Anxiety as a side effect.

Pseudoephedrine is an agonist at both alpha- and, to a lesser degree, beta-adrenergic receptors. Like ephedrine, pseudoephedrine also has an indirect effect by releasing norepinephrine from its storage sites. By stimulating alpha-adrenergic receptors in the mucosa of the respiratory tract, pseudoephedrine shrinks swollen nasal mucous membranes; reduces tissue hyperemia, edema, and nasal congestion; and increases nasal airway patency. Also, drainage of sinus secretions is increased, and obstructed eustachian ostia may be opened. Oral administration of pseudoephedrine usually produces negligible effects on blood pressure. In some patients, especially those with preexisting cardiac disease receiving higher doses, pseudoephedrine may increase blood pressure or irritability of the heart muscle and may affect ventricular conduction. Wiki

[ForLyla]

It was non drowsy Claritin, not sure what the medical name is. I doubt that's the culprit actually seeing as I felt fine for a couple days after I took it. I feel very setback today - like I'm in acute. Heart pounding, anxiety, derealization, blurred vision etc.

I've boiled it down to some likely culprits.

1. Alcohol in food
2. Meals with too many carbs
3. Insomnia phase set me off - too many days of bad sleep in a row.
4. Maybe I didn't measure my doses properly. I weighed them quickly before I left. I doubt this is it as it would be a negligible difference.
And the pseudoephedrine, antihistamines, time difference etc are lower down on the list.

I'm so scared that I'm thrown back into months of this again. I was feeling for a few weeks like this was going away but now I'm back in the thick of it.

[fishinghat]

I could see alcohol or insomnia doing this but you are right about the Claritin. If it is going to hit you hard it will do it in an hour or two.

 

As far as you have come I would think that it would not last months but rather a week or so. Be patient. It will pass. Unluckily this can take a long time.

[fishinghat]

No caffeine or anything real salty recently?

[ForLyla]

FH - should I just stay the course and keep at 25mg? I'm definitely freaking out. The derealization and heart pounding are such acute stage symptoms for me - the same as if I had after an alcohol setback or dose reduction. I had a feeling that going on vacation would be a bad idea.

I don't have any caffeine. I did have a bag of salty peanuts though.

[fishinghat]

Yea, I am afraid you are right. Isolation from any external stimuli is best. The vacation may have been bad timing.

 

I know that even during good times a bag of salted peanuts would cause my heart to pound hard and significant anxiety. If you have ever got salt in a wound you would no it is a strong nerve stimulant. If it is due to salt that pushing fluids for 48 hours always brings it under control for me. For now I would stay at 25 mg until this settles down. No hurry.

[invalidusername]

Very insightful last post Hat. So much in our diets that we don't give the due attention.

 

The psychological symptoms will of course exacerbate the physical - and of course the reverse it true. Viscous circle.

[ForLyla]

Thanks guys. I notice that so much of my days are completely dependent on my sleep and unfortunately my sleep isn't so great at the moment, especially with my 3 month old baby. I guess I shouldn't complain as I'm feeling much better than I did a couple months ago but still sucks having bad days fairly often. I've been tapering at an extremely low pace - about 1% a month. I'm assuming that shouldn't rev me up?

[invalidusername]

Recovery can be slow - so slow that it goes unnoticed. Keep a journal if you can...!

[ForLyla]

I feel terrible today. Shaking, anxiety, vision and heart pouding. I'm assuming I'm going backwards because of my insomnia. How are we supposed to get better if we can't sleep? I guess I can try taking CBD again but I feel like it makes me worse and gives me restless leg. 

[fishinghat]

Those up and down cycles are terrible. Once they break you feel great and convinced you have made it over the hump and will be find, Then when you cycle down you feel like everything is terrible and it will never end. The good news is that it does end but the bad news is it is very slow.

[invalidusername]

Insomnia WILL have done this to you. Why do you think they use it as a torture method? It has made me stir crazy enough times over the last 3 weeks. My every sympathy. Have you tried melatonin for sleep?

[ForLyla]

FH will it end even though I'm still on the med though? I'm at 25mg and tapering 1% a month to start.

IUN my sleep has been terrible. I'm lucky if I get 5 hours of broken sleep in a night. CBD helps but it gives me restless leg and makes me feel lethargic. Melatonin is known to be really bad for restless leg and it sets me off worse than anything.

[fishinghat]

It is NOT the medicine causing this. It is the lack of medicine. Your nerves got use to having the Cymbalta around and now that you are on less the nerves have to readapt. Nerves adjust slowly. The general consensus among researchers is up to 2 years to fully return to normal on average. It is so hard for people to understand how slow nerves adapt. Many of our successful members have taken a year or two to really adapt. That really sucks.

[ForLyla]

I've only tapered 5mg since my original dose of 30mg. I never would have imagined that tapering such a small amount over the course of several months could be so damaging.

[invalidusername]

I wish I had words for you Lyla.

 

These meds are nothing short of very damaging. I rue the day that I decided to cave and start taking them. I refused for months before giving in. 

 

We live and learn my dear.

 

Love, faith and knowledge are my meds

[juli]

Hi Lyla,

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this:(  Some of us are just really really sensitive to the drops.  I was that way and I have a couple good friends from the facebook group that were the same.  It seemed to be impossible to taper like everyone else.  You have been getting such wonderful advice from FH and IUN and you are making amazing progress even though it may not feel like it.

I am just wondering if it might be time to consider a cross-taper.  You may want to get yourself stabilized and not taper anymore and then cross-taper to a new med like zoloft or lexapro.  Many doctors now are using these drugs to get their patients off of Cymbalta/Paxil/Effexor.

If you find the struggle is too much it may be an option.  I cross-tapered from 40mg Cymbalta to 15mg Lexapro and am now sitting at 10mg Lexapro.  I'll have to go super slow on the Lexapro but I don't have the same sensitivity to small drops.  It's taken time for me to feel like my old self but nothing like the hell I was in with Cymbalta.

Don't want to muck up the waters but it is just some food for thought.

juli

[invalidusername]

Ordinarily Juli I would agree, and whilst the answer may indeed be in the solution you suggest, what would worry me is that Lyla is, like myself, very intolerant to medication. A switch might land her in the same amount of trouble as she is presently - conversely, it could be what works. I switched to Lexapro after Cymbalta, and I had more trouble with the Lex than the Cym... if only I knew. Ozgun went through something similar, and her route was to switch. Took some experimenting, but that worked. 

 

It is such a lottery when it comes to these things and weighing up the cost vs benefit is hard when the benefit cannot be guaranteed. Very rash decisions can be made at the height of withdrawal and one can so easily get overcome with indecision. 

 

The other consideration is that going from SNRI to SSRI can offer its own complications - namely in the adrenal area. Most are quite sensitive to this and the norepinephrine can go haywire. 

 

I'd be interested to hear what Hat has to say.

[juli]

Yes IUN I totally agree with you and for certain this shouldn't be tried until absolutely stable. God bless the work you do here.

[fishinghat]

"It is such a lottery when it comes to these things and weighing up the cost vs benefit is hard when the benefit cannot be guaranteed."

This is pretty much what I have to say. lol

The only reason I might recommend this to Forlyla is the number of months she has been at 25 mg and is not yet stable. Not a good sign and very un usual.

If I read your posts correctly you have dropped 5 mg (30 down to 25) over several months. You also said you were dropping 1% a month. At 30 mg that would be 0.3 mg a month. To drop 5 mg would have taken you around 15 months, is that about right?

[gail]

Cross tapering has helped a lot of people here.
It might not be for everyone, but I sure would not hesitate to cross taper after months of suffering.

[ForLyla]

FH no I was tapering 10% a month from 30mg and got down to 22.5mg in October. Then I crashed and was in an intense acute wave for about 5 months. Then I went back up to 25mg nearly 3 months ago. Since then I have been doing better but with a new set of symptoms I've never had before such as the shakiness and seizure like feeling. Only in the last 2 months have I been tapering at 1% a month.

[fishinghat]

Now I understand. Thanks for the info. I remember when you went back up to 25 mg 3 months ago but I thought you were going to stay at that level until you were stable. Dropping at 1% a month for the last 2 months will certainly make things worse. So many members have had this kind of experience but not until they get down to 5 mg or less. If you stay at your current dose it could take you another 5 or 6 months to feel better and then you would still have to taper the rest of the way down which with your sensitivity could take a year or two. I don't know. It might be better to cross taper to a different AD. What do you think?

[invalidusername]

Yes - makes sense. If you went up and then back down again, this is going to make things all over the place. When people are sensitive to these medications it takes longer for them to stabalise on particular doses, just like with each successive antidepressant that people are tried on takes longer to get to the therapeutic effects each time. Unfortunately, whereas some people can drop a dose and level out in around 2 weeks or so, this will certainly not be the case with yourself and will mostly likely take a good 10 weeks. So painful, unfair and awful, but with the levels on a constant change, this will explain why you have had a downturn. Apologies, I also had forgotten where you were at.

[ForLyla]

I have no idea. I think the suntheanine was setting me back pretty hard though because it's a gaba agonist and seemed to act like alcohol for me when I took it.

[invalidusername]

Yup... just like those iron supplements I took, then the celebratory large glass of wine etc. I need to stop and think about everything that passes through my system for fear of it all going nuts. You, my poor Lyla, are clearly worse than I. Really sorry that you are having to go through this.