1636 replies to this topic

[ForLyla]

I wish it were the case but I woke up in the middle of the night and knew I was back in a serious wave! The best windows always follow with the worst waves. I'm not sure if it was something I did. I had some cinnamon tea and zinc carsonine before bed. I cant imagine that being it though, probably just natural progression of withdrawal. It's strange the way its occurring right now. It seems like its 50/50. One good day and one bad day. I wouldnt be surprised if I have a good day tomorrow. I'm also extremely sensitive to everything right now. It feels like I've lost all my headway. I could have sworn that just a little bit of honey threw me into my last bad wave.

[fishinghat]

As you probably know Zinc can cause severe anxiety. It can also build up in the body to heightened levels.  Zinc is not only common in the supplements but also in denture creams, dandruff shampoo and others. A number of class action suits are being pursued against the latter two products for causing severe bouts of anxiety. Zinc has a half life of 47 hours so can build up to excessive levels with time. The RDA for Zinc is 8 mg/day for women. May I ask your dosage?

 

Zinc also competes with copper, iron, and magnesium.

 

Zinc 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23383172

High dose zinc supplementation induces hippocampal zinc deficiency and memory impairment with inhibition of BDNF signaling.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18574758

Zinc induces motor neuron death via a selective inhibition of brain-derived neurotrophic factor activity.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15145706

Zinc treatment induces cortical brain-derived neurotrophic factor gene expression.

We now report that chronic treatment with zinc induced an increase in cortical but not hippocampal BDNF.

[ForLyla]

Zinc carsonine is supposed to be really good for digestive issues. I took 20mg last night. That could be it I guess, although I felt fine taking it before this stupid setback hit. I'll stay off it for now and just take probiotics sparingly. I think the probiotics work a lot better for my reflux anyway.

If it was the zinc, I hope that it wouldnt have set me back for too long. This withdrawal thing is so strange. When you go to sleep at night, it's a coin toss how you're going to feel the next morning. When I'm in a window I wish I could just stay awake forever, that way I wouldnt have to worry about sleep sending me back into a wave!

[fishinghat]

It is good for the digestive system, just may not be good for anxiety.  Does your Zinc Zinc carsonine say how much of it is zinc and how much is  carsonine?

[invalidusername]

When I'm in a window I wish I could just stay awake forever, that way I wouldnt have to worry about sleep sending me back into a wave!

 

The amount of times I have thought the exact same thing...

[ForLyla]

Do you guys know if histamine intolerance and/or mast cell activation is caused by cymbalta?

Having a really rough day. Wondering if it might be the probiotics, even though they really help me with my reflux. I'm way more sensitive to everything since having my withdrawal meltdown. I hate how long it takes to recover from these things but its somewhat nice to know that I'm never doing anything that affects the absorption of cymbalta again.

[ForLyla]

Ok so made an important discovery. I don't think my insane setback was caused by the ppi and antibiotics after all. At least not solely. I thought maybe it was the nasal decongestant I was taking but I'm learning that it was likely the probiotics. I've been in a terrible state the last couple days since I started the probiotics again. All of a sudden, I also feel faint again. Also feeling insanely agitated. However, they're the only things that make my reflux go away.

If we stay on cymbalta and yet have it so nothing sets us back or affects absorption, does this nervous system syndrome ever go away? I've always taken ppi's or something that sets me back so I never fully recover. I'm wondering if I just leave it for a year and be extra safe that maybe I can resume my taper and take another few years to get off this poison. By then I'll probably be dead from throat cancer but oh well!

[fishinghat]

No indication that Cymbalta causes histamine intolerance and considering it does not react with histamines or the receptors it is doubtful. Of course sibo is a common source of histamine intolerance. 

 

While there is no published link between Cymbalta and Mast Cell Activation Disorders the complexity of allergies and compounds that each person has in there system as well as genetics it can't be ruled out.

[invalidusername]

Sorry - aside from the above, just a quick update to say that the wife is now on her PPI every other day and work just as well as every day.

 

She has also now decided to start her Zoloft - her decision as her depression has got a lot worse. She agreed to let me get the PPI dose down before starting, so I am hoping that will help given that the dose is now the equivalent of 10mg/day.

 

Looked online and there were a couple of studies that showed levels to be more or less comparable taking every other day as it was every day.

[ForLyla]

If she has unexplained depression, I really think fungal and/or intestinal overgrowth could be it. Histamine intolerance will also cause severe anxiety.

[invalidusername]

The depression is explainable - no question, but the anxiety not so.

 

I really wanted to follow up with some of these tests, but the wife has just had enough and insisted on giving the Zoloft a go. 

 

But that said, this doesn't sort the GI issues... but one thing at a time. We'll have to wait and see what the Zoloft does and then look into the stomach further.

[fishinghat]

Zoloft has been studied in relation to treating IBS with some sign of success. It has been shown to highly control the serotonin in the digestive system as well so maybe this will be a win for her.

[ForLyla]

So yup definitely the probiotics. No doubt that the ppi etc were bad news for my most recent setback but the faint feeling and all the scary stuff was strange as that's never happened before with ppi's or antibiotics. So yes, I learned that it's all due to the probiotics. Since I started the probiotics again, the fainting feeling and scary symptoms have come back. I only took them for 3 days and stopped on Sunday so hopefully this wont last very long. I wonder how the heck probiotics could cause me to feel this terrible. They literally stop the reflux but cause death otherwise! What gives?

I'm assuming it has something to do with cymbalta absorption in some way as no one else with sibo gets affected like this. Maybe the reduction in acid and inflammation?

[fishinghat]

There are over 100 bacteria that frequently occur in the digestive tract. Good ones and bad ones. Their characteristics depend on what compounds they release during digestion and what compounds they directly generate. It is hard to say the exact cause \but I may be able to help. On your bottle of probiotics it should give the specific bacteria that it contains. If you can give me that list I will try and find out which ones should be helping with the reflux and which ones may be causing the side effects. Maybe we can find a better on point product for you.

[ForLyla]

Thanks FH! As always your research and expertise is appreciated.

S boulardii
L plantarum
L reuteri
L acidophilus
B lactis

Just the s boulardii and l plantarum seem to be enough to stop my reflux. I'm wondering if its the s boulardii which is actually a yeast based probiotic. Maybe I experience die off from it? Who knows!

[fishinghat]

Thanks for the info. It may take some time but I will let you know what I find.

[ForLyla]

Like how frustrating is that, that the only thing that makes my horrible reflux go away is the thing that makes me feel the worst. Does cymbalta interact with literally everything? This is the worst poison imaginable! I want off of it. How do I get rid of this damm 25mg I'm still on?

[ForLyla]

I'd like to still taper despite how awful I feel, no matter how little it is. Would 1% or approx 1 bead every 2 weeks be reasonable to not have long-term reactions?

[fishinghat]

Reasonable but I would wait a few days until this episode passes a little.

[fishinghat]

Well, I was surprised. Most probiotic research deals with its antibacterial action against pathogens, stabilizing bacterial populations in the gut and treating diarrhea. In addition, a lot research is on a mixture of probiotic strains not on one strain at a time. There is little information on how individual species affect pH in the GI tract. I did find a lot of interesting info though that may apply to your situation. As most of those probiotic strains encourage good bacteria and may kill bad bacteria you will possibly be exposed to endotoxins from the bad bacteria. Also, a great many of the species you listed have significant impact on digestive neurotransmitters. 

 

Overview

 

The gut microbiota can directly synthesize more than 90% of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and dopamine (DA) in the body 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5102282/

Psychobiotics and the Manipulation of Bacteria–Gut–Brain Signals

Neurotransmitters: psychobiotics enhance neurotransmitter production in the gut, including dopamine (DA), serotonin (5-HT), noradrenaline (NA), and γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), which likely modulate neurotransmission in the proximal synapses of the enteric nervous system. 

 

Lactobacillus probiotics should not be taken in patients who are sensitive to lactose in milk. Most Lactobacillus species effects serotonin. A review of Table 1 in.....

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6971226/

shows all the probiotic strains and which neurotransmitters they effect.

[fishinghat]

I have more info Lyla but it will not let me post it right now. I will try again later in the morning. Sorry.

[fishinghat]

Information on your specific species. 

Page 1

 

Saccharomyces boulardii - Yeast

 

Used to treat certain types of diarrhea and some intestinal infestations. 

It does not effect acid generation directly but due to it's increase in release of IgA, an antibody, it can be effective in treating some gastric diseases which can cause increases in acid release. 

 

Other than research in regard to the above mentioned subjects little is known about this yeast.

 

Possible Side Effects

Like other supplements, little is known about the safety of long-term or regular use due to a lack of research.

Saccharomyces boulardii may cause certain side effects (such as gas and bloating, constipation). In addition, there's some concern that use of Saccharomyces boulardii may lead to fungemia (a condition marked by the presence of fungi in the blood).5 Older adults, infants, immunocompromised or seriously ill patients, and people with colitis, cancer, central venous catheters, and any chronic or acute condition should avoid pathway. Saccharomyces boulardii, or use it only after consulting their primary care provider.

[fishinghat]

Page 2

 

Lactobacillus plantarum

 

It is a lactic acid producing bacteria. Lactic acid has been commonly associated with increased anxiety due to the formation of sodium lactate in the body. L. plantarum has significant antioxidant activities and also helps to maintain intestinal permeability.  It is able to suppress the growth of gas-producing bacteria in the intestines and may benefit some patients who suffer from IBS. It helps to create microbe balance and stabilize digestive enzyme patterns.  Lactobacillus plantarum has been found in experiments to increase hippocampal brain derived neurotrophic factor, which means L. plantarum may have a beneficial role in the treatment of depression. The ability of L. plantarum to produce antimicrobial substances helps them survive in the gastrointestinal tract of humans. The antimicrobial substances produced have shown significant effect on Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria.

 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/32610495/

Lactobacillus plantarum DR7 Modulated Bowel Movement and Gut Microbiota Associated with Dopamine and Serotonin Pathways in Stressed Adults

We have previously reported that the administration of Lactobacillus plantarum DR7 for 12 weeks reduced stress and anxiety in stressed adults as compared to the placebo group, in association with changes along the brain neurotransmitters pathways of serotonin and dopamine-norepinephrine. Our present data showed that physiological changes induced by L. plantarum could be associated with changes in specific taxa of the gut microbiota along the serotonin and dopamine pathways.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/30882244/

Lactobacillus plantarum DR7 alleviates stress and anxiety in adults: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled study

The administration of DR7 enhanced the serotonin pathway, as observed by lowered expressions of plasma dopamine β-hydroxylase (DBH), tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase and tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase accompanied by increased expressions of tryptophan hydroxylase-2 and 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor-6, while stabilizing the dopamine pathway as observed via stabilized expressions of TH and DBH over 12 weeks as compared to the placebo.

[fishinghat]

Page 4

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/30266270/

Probiotic Lactobacillus plantarum P8 alleviated stress and anxiety while enhancing memory and cognition in stressed adults: A randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled study

The present data illustrated that L. plantarum P8 is a feasible and natural intervention for the alleviation of selected stress, anxiety, memory and cognitive symptoms in stressed adults.

[fishinghat]

Page 5

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/29575441/

Lactobacillus plantarum MTCC 9510 supplementation protects from chronic unpredictable and sleep deprivation-induced behaviour, biochemical and selected gut microbial aberrations in mice

We provide evidence that positive modulation of the selected beneficial gut microbial population could serve as a viable strategy to neutralize day-to-day and SD stress-induced pathological alterations.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3419998/

L. plantarum 299v (DSM 9843) also increases the amount of carboxylic acid, particularly acetic and propionic acids, in the stools of healthy volunteers

[fishinghat]

Page 6

 

Lactobacillus reuteri 

 

L. reuteri, a lactic acid producing bacteria, benefits its host in a variety of ways, particularly by fighting off harmful infections and mediating the immune system. It is used to treat diarrhea, to produce the antibiotic Reuterin and reduce the occurrence of bad bacteria in the gut.

 

With regard to prevention of gut infections, comparative research found L. reuteri to be more potent than other probiotics.  Animal research found it to reduce motor complexes and thus intestinal motility.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/30574801/

Effects of long-term administration of Lactobacillus reuteri DSM-17938 on circulating levels of 5-HT and BDNF in adults with functional constipation

At the end of probiotic administration (V4), 5-HT and BDNF serum levels were significantly lower than the initial values.

[fishinghat]

Page 7

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/31927268/

Oral treatment with Lactobacillus reuteri attenuates depressive-like behaviors and serotonin metabolism alterations induced by chronic social defeat stress

The anti-depressive effects of L. reuteri 3 were associated with improved gut microbiota and serotonin metabolism.

 

https://www.nature.c...598-019-51293-8

Beneficial effects of Lactobacillus reuteri 6475 on bone density in male mice is dependent on lymphocytes

May increase bone density.

 

Lactobacillus acidophilus

 

L. acidophilus was found to lower serum cholesterol and raise cholesterol in fecal matter when fed to pigs. It helps balance gut bacteria populations. Digests sugars into lactic acid.

 

Used for treating diarrhea and balancing gut bacterial populations and certain gut infections.

 

L. acidophilus can cause an allergic reaction in some people. Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur:

Cough

difficulty with swallowing

dizziness

fast heartbeat

hives, itching, or rash

puffiness or swelling of the eyelids or around the eyes, face, lips, or tongue

tightness in the chest

trouble breathing

unusual tiredness or weakness

 

Constipation and bloating are common side effects.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/29451186/

Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium longum supernatants upregulate the serotonin transporter expression in intestinal epithelial cells

 

Bifidobacterium animalis (previously called B lactis)

 

Bifidobacterium Lactis is a very powerful transient probiotic bacteria. Scientific studies have proven that B. Lactis enhances immunity, fights tumor growth, improves digestion and can lower cholesterol.

 

B. animalis/lactis inhabit the intestines & the colon in great numbers. Generally, their job is to break down body waste & aid in the absorption of various vitamins & minerals

 

Bifido Lactis is present in raw milk and is used as starter culture for cheese, cottage cheese and butter milk.

In some people, stomach upset may occur. A person may also experience bloating, as well as gas. In some cases, diarrhea has also been noted. These side effects generally only occur for a few days. Once the body gets acquainted with the change in bacterium species in the gastrointestinal tract, the side effects tend to subside. 

 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/31660551/

Study of gastrointestinal tract viability and motility via modulation of serotonin in a zebrafish model by probiotics

The regulation mechanism of serotonin by Bifidobacterium animalis F1-7 was revealed by RT-PCR and the results show that this most effective strain promotes intestinal peristalsis in zebrafish via the modulation of serotonin release and key genes for serotonin synthesis in zebrafish.

[fishinghat]

Well, I had to post it in small sections but I made it.  lol

[invalidusername]

Not that again!! 

 

This needs to be addressed by Ken...

[ForLyla]

Thank you FH. A lot of information to decipher here, some of it is very useful after glancing it over. You're the best at finding this info. I'll follow up when I get a chance to sit down and research this further.