1636 replies to this topic

[ForLyla]

Is it normal to not have stabilized 6 months after your last taper? Do I need to go back up to my original dose of 30mg?

[gail]

Forlyla,


Well no need to talk about bead counting if you are not stabalized yet.

I would jump to 30mg, were you comfortable at that dose? If so, make the move.

[fishinghat]

Yesterday you wrote.. "I've been feeling slightly better the last week. I haven't had any horrific episodes or been as sporadic with how I feel." So I sort of assume that you are feeling bad again today. One thing I recommend is to keep a journal on med changes as well as how you are feeling. One of the reasons for this is to get a better idea if you are progressing. During Cymbalta withdrawal periods of up and down are very common. It is not unusual to feel great one day and be convinced it is over and then the next to feel terrible and that it will never end. By keeping a journal you can look for a pattern. As an example 4 weeks ago you might have had one decent day a week and now you may be running 2 or 3 days a week. In that event you know you are progressing and not give up hope.

However, if you feel like this is not the case and you can't dal with it like it is then by all means go back to 30 mg and see if you stabilize.

[fishinghat]

"I took benzos and cymbalta for a chronic pain condition starting in October 2016. I got off benzos quickly a few months later and started feeling better after 15 months off." "My last dose of benzos was Feb 25 2017."

So I would guess you started to wean off the benzos around the first of 2017 and by around June or so of 2018 started feeling better. That is about the right timing unless you were on clonazepam. It can take a couple of months longer.

"I was taking 30mg of cymbalta and made the genius move to start tapering in July at 10% a month. I felt decent while tapering until October and all hell has broken loose since. " "I did stay at 22.5mg for 5 months but those doses weren't completely accurate."

So right now your gaba receptors are nearly normal from the Benzo withdrawal as it has been around 25 montrhs since you came totally off the benzos. You should not have any signifiocant benzo withdrawala effects at this time. You started taking 30 mg of Cymbalta in July of 2018 and dropped 10% a month. So if your capsules contain around the typical 300 beads then that would mean a drop of around 30 beads a month. Thats a little faster than you would go if you were above 30 mg and would say too fast below 30 mg for sure. With some of the doses being inaccurate then this would really exaserbate your withdrawal and make it very hard if not impossible to stabilize.

"Blurred vision, heart pounding, nausea, insane anxiety, dizziness, constant migraines and headaches, itchy dry skin, cognitive issues etc. " and "...derealization and dizziness is pretty intense."

These symptoms are typical for the beginning of Cymbalta withdrawal. The worse symptoms deveop later that include rage, depression, anxiety, and an emotional rollercoaster you can't imagine. I would say you are having typical symptoms for this stage. Of course the idea of bead counting is to go slow enough that the symptoms aren't severe. It could take you a few more months to stabilize.

"I have a 6 week old daughter so I need to stay functional for her. "

To me this is the most critical comment you have made. If I were you I would give the 25 mg dose another week or 10 days and if not significantly better then I would go to 30 mg and stay there until you do stabilize. Once comfortable (not just tolerable) I would do a 2 year wean OR longer. You need to be able to take care of your child. That would be a 4% drop per month and around )depending on the num,ber of beads in your capsule) a 1 bead drop every 2 or 3 days. Remember some members could only drop 1 bead every month at the very end.

[ForLyla]

Hey FH, would you go right back up to 30mg after another week or go back up slowly? I was on the surviving antidepressants group a while back and they kept warning me not to go back up but didn't really say why.

 

Yes, I don't feel as horrible as I was but I definitely don't feel good at all. My worst symptom right now is a shakiness that's really disturbing. I can't keep my hands straight and it feels like I'm shaking on the inside. I have CBD capsules and I've heard really mixed reactions from people. Should I try it out? Could it possibly give me a horrible setback?

[fishinghat]

If I could endure it I would go back up about 1 mg every 7 to 10 days until stable. The less you go up the more you have to go down later.

Many members have had good luck with CBD oil. I am not aware of any members having any issue with taking it.Our resident expert on that is IUN and I am sure he will be responding later.

[invalidusername]

Some really good advice from Hat here - and he comes from a very good position of experience.

 

Regarding going back to 30mg, as said, wait and see how you feel after 7-10 days and judge from there. This is plenty time to have an effect on your system given the short half-life of Cymbalta.

 

CBD will do you no harm and provided you approach gently and work out a suitable dose, you will be fine. The effects are different for everyone, but overall, you should feel more relaxed... if taken in the evening you will probably notice muscles just want to stop which is perfectly normal!

[ForLyla]

I just really think going back up is a bad idea. I experimented by going back up to 25mg it hasn't seemed to do anything for me. Yes, I felt slightly better but that might just be attributed to sleeping better now that my baby is. And if I go back up to 30mg and there are no changes or I feel worse then I am literally screwed. The only way I'll ever heal is if I get off this medication altogether. I think the best course is to give 25mg a few more weeks and if nothing changes or I get worse then I don't see any other option than to taper again. I literally feel like I'm having a seizure today I'm shaking so much. 

[fishinghat]

It can be a very tough decision but no one, not even a dr, will know your body better than you. If you do decide to wean down we are here for you. If it just gets to horrendous then there are supplements and prescription meds you can try. Realize this can be a 6 month to 1 year living hell but lets hope you do better than that.

[KathyInFL]

Lyla, I have the point 5 xanax (my tablet would not let me type it correctly, sheese) and I take it very rarely, maybe 2 a week. I am going to be flying again weekly, I take it to help me relax when flying.

I took almost 2 years to taper off the Cymbalta, I was on 60mg for about 15 years. I still get the occasional brain zap. My anxiety is higher now too...

[ForLyla]

Kathy I would be very cautious with the benzos. I was only taking it about 3 or 4 times a week for a short period of time and I felt like hell for 15 months after I stopped it. It's what got me into all this mess to begin with. Have you explored more natural methods like pure CBD or high dose niacin? 

 

BTW I took CBD this evening and it seemed to make me feel slightly better. I just took a low dose 10mg tablet. Tomorrow I might try 20mg if I feel terrible again. 

[ForLyla]

FH I feel like I've been going downhill the last 3 days. I woke up in the middle of the night with my heart rate jacked and insanely shaky. I'm shaking more than ever. Should I go back down in dose if this is making me worse? Suggestions?

[invalidusername]

 

BTW I took CBD this evening and it seemed to make me feel slightly better. I just took a low dose 10mg tablet. Tomorrow I might try 20mg if I feel terrible again. 

 

These are CBD tablets??

[fishinghat]

You are going to swing up and down in your feelings whether you go up on dose or down on dose. The difference is that when you increase your dose you usually have less of a rollercoaster and less intense bad times. That is why I always recommend a journal. During these times your perspective is way off and you can not think clearly. I kept a daily record of how many bad hours, fair hours and good hours I had each day. I could then look back a few days after a change and tell if things were better or not. Something to consider.

[ForLyla]

IUN ya CBD tablets. Seemed to make me feel better for a few hours but didn't have the lasting effect I had hoped for. 

[ForLyla]

FishingHat this isn't the worst I've felt but it's the worst shaking I've had. Hands are trembling and it feels like my brain is shaking on the inside - probably because my vision is so distorted. I just wish I knew what to do from here. Right now I'm thinking of just staying at 25mg for another while and see if I can stabilize. I haven't been able to stabilize at all since my daughter was born. It's been chaos ever since - I'm assuming because of lack of sleep and stress but I've been sleeping better recently. Otherwise, it's discouraging because usually when I have such a terrible day then a window will open up the next and that's not happening

 

Also, should I continue with the CBD? It seems ok so far. 

[invalidusername]

Most of the time it is oil that is used - but I guess tablets would work.

 

The effect doesn't last that long, no. Maybe 3... 4 hours at the most. It is not a permanent solution, more of a fix at the time. People generally take it when most needed and go it alone for the rest of the day. 

 

Good news on the sleep - hopefully this will have some long-term effect, but you are right, this may take a few days to see results.

[ForLyla]

So it's been a little over 2 weeks since I went up to 25mg. I feel the heart pounding and nausea coming back like I did when I last tapered in September. Will this pass soon or does it mean upping didn't work for me? I feel like I'm getting worse because the heart pounding is an acute withdrawal symptom for me

I think I'm dying. How can someone go through hell this long and feel this bad and make it out alive? It terrifies me I just had a baby and I won't be around for her. It feels like this is the end. I really thought I was seeing the sunrise this summer after 15 long months of hell in benzo withdrawal but I got sucked back in but worse than ever.

[fishinghat]

"Will this pass soon or does it mean upping didn't work for me?"

I think I can say comfortably that it did not work for you. I posted some updosing medical research on one of IUNs posts and all the articles said that updosing brings relief in 24 to 48 hours. That pretty much matches what I have seen on this site as well. So if it has been 2 weeks it is not a good sign. If going up to 25 mg was not enough for a complete recovery you still should have seen improvement.

"I feel like I'm getting worse because the heart pounding is an acute withdrawal symptom for me"

The development of the heart pounding is caused by an increase in adrenaline and/or norepinephrine. The strange thing is that Cymbalta controls norepinephrine so any heart pounding should have been made better not worse. With the development of heart pounding when you went up to 25 mg indicates to me that it is a side effect of taking Cymbalta. Usually side effects from a med get worse with increasing dose. Do you think you could have been having side effects while taking Cymbalta. Was the heart pounding worse when you were on a larger dose?

[invalidusername]

Lyla - this is what we were talking about earlier, and I am so glad that Hat has said the same thing on both the updose and the adrenaline. 

 

But just as Hat has said that the norepinephrine should be controlling the adrenaline, I just think your system is THAT sensitive that it is trying to correct itself further. You have added more norepinephrine, so your system may be compensating for this by upregulating further than it should, which is what can happen in super-sensitive systems, although it is rarely seen. 

 

Documenting what has occurred before as Hat has asked might help to uncover more of the cause.

 

This sounds like a Vinpin meets Ozgun scenario here!! Lots of hugs and prayers required for our friend here.

[ForLyla]

I never had heart pounding until I tapered cymbalta and felt fine for the most part.

I'm assuming it didn't work because I went up so long after my last taper. So the question is - what do I do now? Any ideas?

[invalidusername]

Hat - I think your advice would be best read here - although I feel her only option is to taper down - albeit very slowly.

[fishinghat]

Heart pounding during withdrawal is common as you have less Cymbalta in your system and less control of norepinephrine. Heart pounding on going up is not common. At this point do you feel like you are stable on the 25 mg or do you feel like your symptoms are still changing?

[ForLyla]

I feel like my symptoms are changing to some degree. I'm more shaky, heart pounding, some nausea and my anxiety has been really bad the last few days. The CBD is the only thing that seems to calm me down a bit. I'm wondering if I should stay where I am for another few weeks and then taper or taper right away. Or maybe I'll just get worse at this dose as time goes on. I haven't been stable since October.

Another reason why I'm a "special" case is because I also have benzo wd syndrome. So my nervous system is screwed up. My heart pounding used to happen in benzo wd syndrome as well. Also, it doesn't even seem to matter if they are psychoactive drugs. One woman came off Tylenol with codeine and had a terrible 3 month setback.

I need to be in a steady state all the time. I really messed up. I don't see a way out of this.

[fishinghat]

Codeine is a psychoactive drug with a bad withdrawal. It is a strong stimulator of opiate receptors.

Effects include anxiety, drowsiness, fatigue, headache, insomnia, nervousness, shakiness, somnolence, vertigo, visual disturbances, weakness.

Heart pounding in benzo withdrawal is common as well. Benzos act on gaba receptors which slow down the action of other neurotransmitters line adrenaline. Once a reduction in benzos takes place then the adrenaline kicks in causing the heart pounding.

Your question of stability is a good one. I have worked with nearly a dozen pdocs over the last 20 years and have never heard of a time limit to go back up or down during that time. It does apply to benzos though. The only members on this site that I am familiar with that going onto or increasing a dose of an ssri or snri didn't help were two members who had bipolar disorder. This is not unusual as ssri and snri have very unpredictable results with bipolar individuals.

At this point I am not sure if you should wait to go back to tapering or not as this is an unusual situation. By the way are you on any ppis, proton pump inhibitors, like Tagamet, zantec, omeprazole etc ?

[ForLyla]

Nope zero other meds unless you count CBD. Strangely enough, my acid reflux is the one symptom that seems to be better through all this. Perhaps because I've cut out sugar.

So what do you think FH? Stay at current dose? I'm debating going down 1 bead a week at this point or is even that too fast?

Thank you

[fishinghat]

Considering you aren't doing any better I would go ahead and wean very slowly. One bead a week. I always preach 'time and patience' but I don't necessarily practice it. lol

It is just a flip of the coin I am afraid.

[ForLyla]

Fh how long did you go through hell for? How long did it take to recover and what were your main symptoms? Being a newbie I don't know much about your story.

[fishinghat]

My withdrawal lasted around 9 months and I couldn't stand anymore and went on Zoloft. During those 9 months I went through the gastric problems, terrible emotional swings followed by horrible fear, zaps, shakes, anger, depression, etc. I would spend hours in the fetal position and screaming in fear. Cymbalta completely shutdown my testosterone so they wouldn't let me take anything for the withdrawal for 3 months until my testosterone came back. It never kicked back in (a condition called pssd) so I had to go on hormone replacement therapy. I am left with total loss of all sexual function or feelings in my genitals. After the 3 months with no meds I was a disaster. They tried 6 different meds to help me handle the withdrawal and none worked until I got on Zoloft. That was 2013. I have now weaned off all the meds they tried on me except one and I am nearly off of it. Isn't life fun? NOT!!!

[invalidusername]

Your story never gets any easier to read Hat. You are an inspiration to all.