1636 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

Probiotics are one of the treatments for SIBO. They help get your gut bacteria back in balance. The reason it is causing the "shaky, tired, irritable and gives me bowel problems" is because it is promoting good bacteria in the gut which will decrease the bad bacteria due to the competition. Many people think that bad bacteria is what makes you sick and indeed can account for fever and lack of appetite but the bulk of the disease symptoms are due to the release of toxins as the bad bacteria die. These toxins account for the "shaky, tired, irritable and gives me bowel problems".

Wait until you start the antibiotics. The bad bacteria will die by the scores. That is why antibiotics of any kind often cause nausea, diarrhea, etc when you first start them.

[ForLyla]

FH so are my side effects from the probiotics a good thing or a bad thing? Does it mean they're working?

[fishinghat]

Yes, it means they are working. As the good bacteria take over the bad bacteria start to die away and when they die most of them release toxins that can upset the stomach/intestines. The mist common side effects are bloating and gas. Most of this can be avoided by starting at a small dose and working up to a full dose over a few weeks. On their own the symptoms should fade away in around 3 weeks.

[ForLyla]

Could it also be contributing to my heart pounding again? I'm a little worried the probiotics are making my withdrawal symptoms worse. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.

[fishinghat]

It is possible as the toxins released by the dead bad bacteria are typically inflammatory. One way to find out is to cut your dose of probiotics for a few days and see if it gets better.

[Polly38]

Hi Lyla.

I'm having the same problem with the probiotics. They are exacerbating my symptoms- upper stomach discomfort and the shortness of breath I've been experiencing in withdrawal. I have taken probiotics before and they can give you die off reactions as Hat said, as they are killing off the bad bacteria. Make sure you drink plenty of water. I forgot to take my vitamin C to work today so have been quite uncomfortable. Vitamin C should support your body to get rid of the toxins. Mine was also made worse by having a Shiatsu massage yesterday which has stirred up the toxins even more.

A question for Hat or IUN - would activated charcoal help with removing the toxins?

Hope you're more comfortable today Lyla.

Polly

[fishinghat]

Vitamin C can also make the stomach issues worse as it can increase stomach acidity. Instead I use N-acetylcysteine which is a better oxidizer and does not acidify the stomach.

 

I have read a lot of research on activated carbon and none of it reflects any detoxification effects. Of course this would not be the typical detox as most of them are aimed at the liver and these toxins are in the digestive tract. That was a good idea to increase the water intake.

[Polly38]

Thanks FH. So I'll try the NAC tomorrow. Is it OK to take Suntheanine with either Vit C or NAC please.?

Does what I describe sound like die off.

Thanks.

Polly

[Polly38]

Sorry, last question- are they all OK to take with my asthma inhalers?

Thanks.

[fishinghat]

All are Ok to take with each other.

 

As far as it being die off? It is hard to say. The symptoms match starting probiotics and die off of bad bacteria but there again so many things can cause those types of symptoms.  Which I could be more specific.

[Polly38]

Thanks FH. I will try the NAC tomorrow to see if that calms things down. Will also try the Suntheanine again to see if that gets rid of this horrible tense feeling.

Thanks.

Polly

[ForLyla]

FH thank you for your great advice as always. And yes, vitamin c wrecks havoc on my acid reflux so I stay away from it.

POLLY- from personal experience, suntheanine sent me into a bad wave. I'd be cautious taking any supplements. Unfortunately there's nothing but a proper all natural and low carb, low sugar diet, stress reduction and sleep that can help with recovery. Our gut microbiome is craving homeostasis and concentrated forms of almost anything are bound to cause problems. Even the probiotics are revving me up big time - very irritable, anxious etc. If you're really in need, many of us have found pure CBD to be somewhat helpful but it really depends on the individual. I've attached a link for the brand I buy.

If you have stomach issues, which I'm assuming you do I'd suggest a couple things. Do two 20 minute sessions of deep belly breathing every day. This will relax your enteric and sympathetic nervous system and your vagus nerve. Second, try a strict FODMAP diet. There are free fodmap apps that can direct you as to which foods are good or bad. Try avoiding sugar altogether and perhaps gluten and dairy.

https://www.missenvy...ttle-wholesale/

[ForLyla]

FH I'm also wondering if the probiotics could be revving us up because certain strains increase histamine. Histamine stimulates serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine transmission in the brain. Perhaps this is why the ppi set me back so hard. I wonder if perhaps taking an antihistamine may calm things down a bit.

[fishinghat]

Most antihistamines help with anxiety. Like Benadryl (diphenhydramine), hydroxyzine and others.

 

Your comment on diet reminded me of recent research into "blue zone" There is 5 blue zones that have been documented around the world where people living in those areas for extended number of years live much longer than in other regions. The amazing thing is that they eat very little meat, little to no fish and very high carbohydrate diets. WHAT!! I thought low carbs were good. Never mind.  lol

[ForLyla]

Lol that is interesting. I need to research that! I'll be the Guinea pig and see if the antihistamine helps. They used to help me in benzo withdrawal but this is a different beast.

[invalidusername]

Will be really interested to see how you get on with the NAC Polly. 

 

Still relatively early stages compared to others in terms of its use in withdrawal, but the more data we can get the better!!

[ForLyla]

I took some non drowsy desloratadine and so far it really helped with my probiotic induced symptoms. I feel relaxed. It's too early to tell though. I'll let you know Polly how I feel tomorrow. I'd stick with the non drowsy antihistamines if you take one. You dont want ones with alcohol or that cross the blood brain barrier.

[ForLyla]

Hey Polly. Yup that did the trick! I took 5mg of desloratadine last night and I feel great and slept better than I have in a week. Probiotics must have increased my histamine too much as well and made me super anxious! I'm trying out a FODMAP low histamine diet and I'll see how that goes. I'm suspecting it will yield good results for my stomach issues and mental health.

[Polly38]

Wow Lyla, that's great news! We can only get Desloratidine on prescription over here so it probably won't be possible for me to get it.

However, we have an over the counter antihistamine called Claritin that has Loratidine in it. Hat - is this similar to Desloratidine please?

Thanks again Lyla.

[fishinghat]

Lyla
Great news Lyla!! Well done.
 
Polly
"Hat - is this similar to Desloratidine please?"

Actually Polly, Desloratidine is bot active in the body but as soon as you digest it it forms loratadine which is a very effective antihistamine. Trying the loratadine is a very good idea.

[fishinghat]

Caution

When using Claritin be cautioys as it may cause anxiety. See below.

ebook

Claritin-D 24 hour extended release tablets
10 mg loratadine for immediate release
240 mg pseudoephedrine sulfate is released slowly allowing for once-daily administration.

Pseudoephedrine
Wiki
Patients who are prone to anxiety or panic attacks should use pseudoephedrine with caution, as anxiety and restlessness are common side effects, mostly due to the drug's stimulant properties. Pseudoephedrine should not be taken with beta-blockers.

http://www.sciencedi...080552323624882
Can cause anxiety as a side effect.

http://research.omic...Pseudoephedrine
Adverse effects
Common adverse drug reactions (ADRs) associated with pseudoephedrine therapy include: CNS stimulation, insomnia, nervousness, excitability, dizziness and anxiety. Infrequent ADRs include: tachycardia or palpitations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10999495
"...the drug tended to increase anxiety scores. Depth resulted in a significant increase in anxiety scores and a significant decrease in verbal fluency test scores."

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4518702/
Over-the-counter cold preparations contain phenylpropylamine and pseudoephedrine, obvious stimulants. Yet patients with unexplained dyspnea may believe they have allergies and take these medications frequently in order to treat their anxiety symptom, further exacerbating their dyspnea and anxiety symptoms. The use of energy drinks with combinations of both caffeine and stimulants is another important example.
And many more research articles....

http://www.ehealthme...loride/anxiety/
(FDA website)
140 people reported to have side effects when taking Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride.
Among them, 12 people (8.57%) had Anxiety as a side effect.

Pseudoephedrine is an agonist at both alpha- and, to a lesser degree, beta-adrenergic receptors. Like ephedrine, pseudoephedrine also has an indirect effect by releasing norepinephrine from its storage sites. By stimulating alpha-adrenergic receptors in the mucosa of the respiratory tract, pseudoephedrine shrinks swollen nasal mucous membranes; reduces tissue hyperemia, edema, and nasal congestion; and increases nasal airway patency. Also, drainage of sinus secretions is increased, and obstructed eustachian ostia may be opened. Oral administration of pseudoephedrine usually produces negligible effects on blood pressure. In some patients, especially those with preexisting cardiac disease receiving higher doses, pseudoephedrine may increase blood pressure or irritability of the heart muscle and may affect ventricular conduction. Wiki

 

Loratadine

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/10444229
Loratadine, No effect on 'mood'.

While this is the only research I found it is interesting to note that around 4% of people taking loratadine report anxiety as a side effect. This is about the same number of diphenhydramine (Benadryl) users that report depression as a side effect. (FDA)

From Drugs.com
Cardiovascular side effects have included hypertension, hypotension, palpitation, supraventricular tachyarrhythmias, syncope and tachycardia.

Wiki
As a "nonsedating" antihistamine, loratadine causes less (but still significant, in some cases) sedation and psychomotor retardation than the older antihistamines because it penetrates the blood/brain barrier to a smaller extent.[14]
Note - Inability to significantly penetrate the blood brain barrier would make it an unlikely anxiolytic medicine.
Do not take with Tagamet or other antihistamines.
Half life - 8 hours.

[Polly38]

Oh no, another horrible list of side effects. Should I even bother or just stick to NAC?

[fishinghat]

Just be sure it has the loratadine as the active ingredient and not the pseudoephedrine. The bad side effects from pseudoephedrine only occur in about 10% of people so if you have to you can do the old teaspoon teacup rule and test it with a low dose first.

[ForLyla]

Hey Polly I actually used to use Claritin and it didn't give me any side effects. It's worth a try imo.

The CBD might be worth a try as well. Some evidence suggests it helps with IBS and acid reflux. It works on gaba receptors differently than benzos and I've never had any side effects. I prefer not to smoke it because of the additives. Some people swear by it in withdrawal but some dont like it so there could be a bit of risk involved.

[fishinghat]

IUN is our resident CBD expert and I am sure he will chime in later. As I understand it there are a number of varieties with each having its' own effects so one needs to be sure and get the right one.

[Polly38]

Thanks both. I do have cbd oil but hacan't used it much recently. I've had a conversation with IUN and he recommended a grand he uses for when mine runs out. Thanks for the link you sent Lyla - I'll have a look at that too.

I bought some Loratadine on the way home. The pharmacist said to wait until tomorrow to take it as I took Benadryl earlier. I have just taken NAC so will take it consistently and see if it makes a difference. The brand I bought has really good reviews.

No stomach pain again today, which is good. So my main symptoms at the moment are shortness of breath and congestion in my nose and ears. My ears feel like they are permanently blocked. No anxiety really. I'm hoping the NAC will help with this. I'll try the Loratadine tomorrow. Will keep you posted.

Thanks for all your advice and support.

Polly

[ForLyla]

Many people on the benzo boards have had setbacks from Benadryl. It may make you feel better at first but could give you rebound effects days later. Besides the alcohol that can be in the liquid form, it's a first generation garbage antihistamine that crosses the blood brain barrier. I'd highly recommend not taking it anymore.

Otherwise, maybe you should stop the probiotics and just focus on good probiotic and prebiotic foods instead. I'm not fond of the use of supplements during withdrawal. Some people do fine on some of them but for sensitive people like myself, they generally make me feel worse and prolong withdrawal symptoms. Im actually very surprised the antihistamine made me feel better. Good diet, light exercise and sleep is our medicine!

[fishinghat]

I use NAC for other purposes and find it takes 2 or 3 days to kick in.

 

Also, one of the things I discovered by reading all the old posts was the extreme variability in how well Benadryl effected withdrawal symptoms. Once I dug into it I found out there was around a dozen different Benadryl products around the world which had different components. The reactions were the result of these different components. So, when someone writes something about Benadryl or a cold medicine on this site I immediately panic as soooo many of these vary ingredients. There is a long section in the ebook on Benadryl,  Dramamine, cold and flu meds and what to watch put for. A very complicated mess.

[Polly38]

Thanks again both. Unfortunately we don't have the same Benadryl in the UK as you have in the US with the Dramamine in, so I'm not going to take it again.

I don't know if it's my imagination but I took a NAC earlier and the congestion in my nose and ears is easing slightly and the mucous is loosening. Probably too soon for the NAC - and wishful thinking!

Lyla - I think I'm very much like you in that I am quite sensitive to any medication or supplements I take and I think the probiotics may have been a step too far at this stage. I took NAC a few years ago when I did a heavy metal detox and was OK on it so I'm going to stick with that for now and the Clarityn if I need it. Will let you know how it goes.

This forum is such a godsend so thanks to all of you for your ongoing advice and support.

Polly

[ForLyla]

Hey Polly

Definitely let me know how that goes. I do worry a bit about the antihistamines causing short-term relief but longer term setbacks. Maybe I'm just paranoid. What do you think FH?

This forum is the best thanks to people like FH and IUN who are always willing to part with some advice.