1636 replies to this topic

[ForLyla]

The last two weeks I've been going through a crazy fatigue spell. Do you guys know anyone that's been going through this for 3 years+?

[fishinghat]

I never suffered from fatigue during my withdrawal but there is some research that sheds some light. Cymbalta withdrawal often causes low blood sodium and sugar. There are several members that had routine blood exams and found that one or both of these were off and corrected some of the fatigue. Staying well hydrated is always a good idea during withdrawal in order to better remove degradation products from the body. You don't want to take too much sugar or salt to see if it helps. Too much can make anxiety much worse so just try a small amount of one when you have bad fatigue, give it 10 or 15 minutes and you should be able to tell if it is going to help or not.

[ForLyla]

Thanks FH. There are days like the last few where I really question if I'm going to make it out of this alive. I've had some nice windows but it's been too hard for too long. Too much bad luck and setbacks.

[ForLyla]

So I decided to count my beads again because compound pharmacies arent 100% accurate. I know that not all beads are the same size but our scales arent 100% accurate either. Wondering what methods you guys use.

I counted 5 pills so far and the numbers are as follows...

122, 124, 125, 121, 125... so potentially about 3% variation between some doses.

[fishinghat]

That is actually better than commercial brands which can vary a lot more than that. When I did my wean the only thing people did was cunt the beads, No one really considered the difference in size or weight or the number. We had a long, and I mean really long conversation on here once about counting beads, using a sieve to get a consistent size, weighting them, and so on. The bottom line is that there is so many variables not only in the bead manufacturing process but also in using scales and other things. No clear answer for me.

[ForLyla]

Any clue as to why the heart pounding and shaking has gotten worse since my setback? I wondered if maybe my pinkeye could have affected my wd syndrome somehow? The heart pounding literally gets worse every day to the point now where it's like I'm back in the worst of acute.

[fishinghat]

Hi Lyla

There is a theory being talked about in the research articles dealing with withdrawal. Basically they are saying that people who have been through several withdrawals or a couple protracted withdrawals develop something like PTSD for soldiers. It is a form of conditioned response. As soon as something causes an issue or you think it might cause an issue the person becomes almost paranoid and panicky. This is often called a chronic adrenergic state. Basically when you go through the withdrawals or severe stress the body of course responds to these by increasing adrenaline production which causes the anxiety. With time the body becomes so use to producing adrenaline it will happen with the littlest thing. The adrenaline causes the heart pounding, shaking and usually an increase in heart rate. It is just like after a bad car accident. Your heart is pounding so hard and you are shaking so bad you have trouble walking. Good old adrenaline.

[invalidusername]

Very valid point - and if you remember Hat, this is what I think we decided happened to me over Christmas last year when I went from Citalopram to Duloxetine, then back to Citalopram from the Duloxetine, then a few weeks later to Lexapro, then Pregabalin and off again. It is a form of PTSD. The system does get so stressed from the shock of imbalance courtesy of the meds... and what followed was 3 months of the adrenal stuff that you speak so authoritatively about. They were some tough weeks...

[ForLyla]

FH I think that's a valid theory but I dont think that it rings true in my case. Although there definitely is some mind over matter that can be applied. I think what happened was the pantoloc completely wiped away any cymbalta I was taking for at least 3 days and it sent my nervous system in this type of shock syndrome. It feels very similar to how I felt last February when I re-upped my dose from 22.5mg to 25mg - the physical symptoms are all there. This nervous system syndrome for me typically lasts about 6 months without any setbacks before I feel somewhat normal again. Luckily this time because I didnt taper, the mental side affects arent quite as bad. Its mostly just the physical so far which are quite devastating and cause a lot of stress. Because I've gone through this many times, I'm better equipped at resolving it now. I've finally learned that drugs and supplements are the absolute worst for healing - that our bodies want to be in a natural state. Many other long-term sufferers have come to the same conclusion, unfortunately through trial and error.

What I need to worry about now is making sure I'm getting as accurate a dose as possible. I'm still trying to figure out if bead counting is more accurate than weighing.

[ForLyla]

Do you guys think it's possible that I could be "kindled" too much? Like maybe I've driven myself into tolerance withdrawal now that I sort of took a few days away from cymbalta by taking the ppi? This drug is the absolute worst!

[fishinghat]

I am sorry Lyla. I am not familiar with the term kindled.

[invalidusername]

Hat.. FYI

 

http://w-bad.org/kin...Y1JPsfCuFZxtbig

 

Best description I found - relates to benzos but the term is synonymous with all such psychotropic drugs...

[ForLyla]

My heart pounding and shaking is getting worse the further I am from my setback. For 3 weeks the heart pounding was only in the morning or with physical activity but would stop once I was resting. Now its here all the time. I've never had the symptoms follow this kind of pattern. Usually the acute is at its worst when I'm first setback, it doesnt gradually get worse and worse. What the heck is this?

[fishinghat]

Ahhh, kindled - sensitization. Cool and thank you IUN.

 

Sensitization to a drug or withdrawal has been shown to be related to the system that a particular drug effects. For example with benzos, ssri/snri. tricyclics that effect synapses it is generally recommended not to change drugs or go through another similar drug withdrawal for 2 years. That is the approximate recovery time for most synapses. Many researchers say that if you come off a benzo then you should not go on a benzo again for 2 years or risk more side effects and a worse withdrawal. Many heart medications will be Ok to reinstate after just a few days as the heart will adjust relatively quickly to the types of med changes. The exceptions would be steroids which can actually cause physical damage. Pain meds are another one that relates to synapses and many drs will not put someone back on an opioid derivative for at least 6 months after coming off. If you go back on a med to quickly there is a tendency to use too much in order to get the desired effect. That is what happened to me with Lorazepam. I had normally used 1 mg a day with fair success (this is before I found hydroxyzine) but I came off lorazepam in late 2011. When my Cymbalta withdrawal started in early 2013 I was a disaster. The drs and I tried all sorts of things with little to no effect. Finally I said I had to have relief and we started at 2 mg a day. Nothing, By the end of week four I was at 6 mg a day and still no effect. We went to 10 mg for one day only and it didn't even phase me. For comparison 20 mg lorazepam is the amount they give a full size horse to calm it down. Now I have had to go through the withdrawal from that.

 

Sound familiar to your situation Lyla?

[ForLyla]

Yes it does! So what happens to me now? Is it going to be worse this time around?

[ForLyla]

Does anyone want to collaborate in writing a guide on withdrawal? Theres a couple kicking around but they're missing a lot of information. Seeing as how we're in this, might as well make good use of our time and help as many people as we can.

[invalidusername]

400 pages of cymbaltawithdrawal.com eBook would answer that question Lyla

[fishinghat]

Have you looked at the ebook Lyla?

[ForLyla]

The problem is with the guides is that they need to be updated constantly as we're still in the dark ages on this stuff. For instance, the antacid interactions. The Ashton Manual is a good example of a guide that needs some serious updating.

[fishinghat]

Yes, IUN and I try to do an update every 6 months. Right now I am about 1/2 way through preparing my Jan to August update  for 2019.

[invalidusername]

Problem with a manual to cover ALL psychotropic drugs would be huge if done correctly. Ours does cover some other drugs in a little detail, but it is foremost a guide for Cymbalta. We include information relating to benzos and the like as they are frequently associated with the withdrawal process from cymbalta, but for those who had to undertake a whole other withdrawal from benzos, we would suggest something like the ashton manual as this is its area of expertise - just in the same way we would hope that someone on a benzo forum withdrawing from Cymbalta would find our manual... It is never a one size fits all...

 

... apart from the one universal rule that Hat loves to drop as often as he can...

 

time and patience

[ForLyla]

I'm starting to think that protracted withdrawal symptoms are a result of adrenal fatigue. Obviously managing diet, stress, getting light exercise, proper sleep etc all seem to help stave off waves. No matter which psychotropic drug you've withdrawn from, you're going to have a similar set of symptoms. Most of my benzo symptoms are the exact same as my cymbalta ones. What's the common denominator?

[ForLyla]

Captains log - approx 1005 days since I've entered hell. The heart pounding and shaking is finally starting to subside. Night vision and cog fog has also been better over the last week or so. Now I seem to have entered the insomnia phase of hell where I'm waking up every hour and taking about 2 hours to get back to sleep. I had one day last week where I slept a full 7 hours and felt pretty great the next day so I think the sleep is holding me back from feeling somewhat more normal. I'll believe it when I see it but I reckon if I am EXTREMELY careful and stay on the course with living an ALL natural life minus this poison that I might actually start to lead a somewhat normal life again. 

[fishinghat]

I think you are right Lyla but I suspect that this will require great patience and a lot of swings up and down before you are done.

[ForLyla]

FH was your withdrawal syndrome gradual or did you wake up and feel fine one day? I do hear of the odd case where people suddenly snap out of it.

[fishinghat]

In my case my withdrawal showed no signs of improving after 9 months so after trying 5 meds which did not help I finally went on Zoloft and it took the Zoloft 10 weeks to get the withdrawal under control.

[ForLyla]

So I took an ester C vitamin today. Shortly after my vision and anxiety got revved up really badly and has been since. I noticed afterwards on the package "take a few hours apart from medications". I did take it about 3 hours apart from the poison. Any reason as to why this would affect me? I'm assuming it affects the absorption of a delayed release medication like cymbalta, the same way antacids do. I should have known better that we arent safe from anything in this hell. I took a tiny amount so I'm hoping it will be a short lived setback. Do you think eye drops would have an interaction? Hypromollose

[fishinghat]

Ester C gas 5 different products and most contain Vitamin C but may also contain extracts from various plants for bioflavonoids which also can impact neurotransmitters. Usually these effects are mostly positive for members but may also be negative depending on the metabolism of the individual member.

ebook
Vitamin C, along with magnesium and B-complex vitamins are used to transform tryptophan into serotonin.
Information on SAM-e, L-tryptophan and 5htp.
Special Note
Metabolic limitations - All of these items mentioned above are 'natural' in our diets and/or body. However, each has to have certain enzymes, vitamins (such as B6, B12, Vit C, etc.), minerals or other components to be processed into dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline or other neurotransmitters. They may also have items which compete with them in the body such as tyrosine or phenylalanine. The reactions may or may not produce more or less of a neurotransmitter but will that even get to the brain? Many of these products just don't cross the blood brain barrier (a membrane around the brain) so even though they are produced they do no good for mood. Some require special enzymes, insulin, certain proteins, etc to cross the barrier and all these items have their own requirements and limitations. This becomes clearly evident in looking at all the individual comments on these supplements. The effects are all over the place. Each persons body is different and has its own nutritional shortages or overages and therefore it may be impossible to tell in advance what reaction may occur to one of these supplements.

https://examine.com/...ents/vitamin-c/
"Vitamin C Increases blood cortisol. "
"The biosynthesis of L-Carnitine (β-hydroxy butyric acid) that requires Vitamin C is not as a substrate, but as a necessary cofactor (iron and alpha-ketoglutarate are also required cofactors). This is similar to the biosynthesis of catecholamines, as the dopamine-β-hydroxylase enzyme that converts dopamine into noradrenaline (which subsequently converts into adrenaline) is Vitamin C dependent. Other enzymes that Vitamin C is known to positively modulate include those involved in the synthesis of oxytocin, vasopressin, cholecystokinin and α-Melanocyte-stimulating hormone."

[ForLyla]

I'm pretty worried about antacids but I guess calcium carbonate is something I need to worry about as well. I see this ingredient in a lot of foods. I'm assuming I should want to stay away from this altogether?

[fishinghat]

I am not familiar with any issues with calcium carbonate other than it can lower your blood magnesium is taken in large enough doses.