1636 replies to this topic

[ForLyla]

Thanks fishinghat. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm in that minority that has a problem with it. Benzos did a good number on me. I can't exercise, eat anything or even take hot showers without being set off these days.

[fishinghat]

I know you have already come off the benzos but have you heard of water titration? It can be done slowly enough so that there is no withdrawal.

[ForLyla]

Do you think compounding pharmacies are accurate? Should all my pills weigh the same? I have a little digital scale I could use. My problem with counting beads is that many of the beads come in different sizes. 

 

Forgive my paranoia but I'm under so much mental strain it's unbelievable. I've been suffering badly for over 2 years now. Do you really think I could make it out of this alive? Won't I get cancer or some kind of heart problem from my body being under such horrific stress? All I feel is doom, nothing else. 

[invalidusername]

The problem with the beads is that they have an acid-resistant coating which covers the actual medicine. There is no way of knowing how much is coating, and how much is the drug - so weighing is all we have - but even that cannot be accurate. Think of a malteaser - there might be more chocolate and less honeycomb on some compared to others. A good pharma should produce uniform beads, but the generics use cheaper machinery, hence the uneven beads.

 

To sum up - weighing is the most accurate over counting.

 

The FDA do a very thorough job to ensure that other issues do not occur from these pills. It worries me that I have been on them for 14 years now - and that there is questions over long term use with things like Parkinson's disease, but we are talking a lot longer than you have been taking. If this were the case, there would have been many people come forward. You do not need to worry.

[ForLyla]

Has anyone up-dosed after several months and had good results? Some people keep warning me about it - that you can't go back up later than 3 weeks after your last taper. Have you guys heard that? I don't know what to think. I only went up 2.5mg.

[invalidusername]

It is natural to feel nervous.

 

We can only go by what we have seen here - and as Hat has said, those who up-dose do so without complaint. Statistically speaking, you are fine.

 

The three week rule is where the meds will kick back in almost to the level that they were within a few days. After that it does not mean it i dangerous, or that it wont happen, it will just take longer...

[ForLyla]

Thank you. As ignorant as I am about this stuff, someone pointed out that I've been weighing the whole capsules along with the beads. I never even thought that the capsules themselves might not be even in weight. Maybe that's why I've been feeling worse since weighing.  

[invalidusername]

Possibly... if you are that sensitive...

[ForLyla]

Going on my fourth day of moving up to 25mg. Not sure if I feel anything different yet. I haven't been as anxious but the derealization and dizziness is pretty intense. How long do you think it will take before I notice a change? Does it take a good month, as if it would starting the medication? 

[ForLyla]

Btw I noticed that the suntheanine seems to be a potent downregulator. I felt the same way after doing acupuncture or taking niacin. It's been 3 days and I'm still tired from it. Are there any potential health dangers with taking it?

[fishinghat]

4 days is enough Forlyla. Your choice but you can raise to say 27 mg or try and wait it out. I would suggest you take your blood pressure a few times today. The more medicine in your system the lower your systolic (top number)and the more stressed you are the larger the systolic. The drs I have had over the years have used this method to determine if I need more meds or need to change the rate at which I need to wean. It works pretty well.

Suntheanine is a down regulator but its half life ranges from 2.5 to 4.5 hours so it is long out of your system. I would say that the down regulation would be from upping the dose of Cymbalta. It would decrease the effects of norepinephrine and slow the metabolism which can cause a drop in anxiety. Cymbalta is a strong downregulator due to its control of serotonin and norepinephrine.

Suntheanine is generally regarded as safe. It has a rating of GRAS (generally regarded as safe) by the FDA.

[invalidusername]

I did initially think that Lyla would need to go up a little more, but needed to see what was decided.

 

Agree on the Suntheanine as my tiredness is very short lived - but that again depends on situation. I have had a very stressful start to the day, and I am not tired at all because my brain is so wired. 

[ForLyla]

I would have been very surprised if I had felt better by now. I've been going through benzo withdrawal syndrome for over 2 years now and cymbalta withdrawal for over 5 months. Nothing is quick with this stuff. Also, keep in mind that I haven't changed my dose in 5 months so I would expect at least a month before it builds back up in my system again. 

 

Maybe I'm a different case because of benzo withdrawal syndrome but if I take a downregulator - niacin, acupuncture, massage etc, it can last for several days. For instance, after I did acupuncture I had no energy for 5 days after. I have to wonder how much of this is cymbalta withdrawal or how much of it is just the cymbalta taper destabilizing my benzo withdrawal symptoms. I didn't get any of the characteristic symptoms of cymbalta withdrawal like brain zaps etc. Most of them have been the same as my benzo symptoms but just worse - derealization, depersonalization, blurred vision/light sensitivity, dizziness, akathisia and so on. I've heard others in the benzo community talk about their symptoms flooding back even after stopping pain medicine. Not sure what to do about all this. Feeling so hopeless. 

[fishinghat]

"or how much of it is just the cymbalta taper destabilizing my benzo withdrawal symptoms."

Very very possible. It takes your synapses 2 years to return to normal after coming off a benzo. Anything stressful will bring your symptoms back stronger. When was your last dose of benzo? Are you taking something for your benzo withdrawal?

[ForLyla]

My last dose of benzos was Feb 25 2017. Was feeling a lot better until I started tapering my Cymbalta this summer. I didn't crash right away. It took about 2 or 3 months after starting my taper before I got destroyed by symptoms. 

 

I'll never introduce a new psych medication as long as I live. It's pretty common in the benzo world to be pretty anti-supplements. Some things I can handle in small doses but they are few and far between. Most things just make me worse. I'm not feeling too hopeful about upping my Cymbalta dose. 

 

My hope is that I can stabilize if I stay at the same dose for several months. I did stay at 22.5mg for 5 months but those doses weren't completely accurate. If I can't stabilize then I'll have to start tapering again and then maybe my brain will heal after another few years. The 3 year mark is when most people seem to heal completely so my projected timeline won't be for another 5+ years with tapering. 

[invalidusername]

Your system will be very sensitive after the benzo withdrawal, so I think the issue here is that you hit the cymbalta withdrawal too soon before things had righted themselves. I know this doesn't help right now, but by the level of sensitivity shown, I would say this is a fair assumption. Hat - thoughts?

 

As much as you do not want to go back up on your dose, this is your ticket to becoming stable. In the unlikely occurance that things become worse, you have the option of returning to the initial dose before things get out of hand.

[ForLyla]

Yes, I shouldn't have tapered cymbalta for a good couple of years but it's too late. I'd do anything to go back and change my stupid decision. 

 

So I should go back up to 30mg? Won't that destabilize me further, changing my dose, especially after several months? No disrespect meant at all but that doesn't make sense to me. If I had only been down for a few days then yes but my body isn't craving that missed cymbalta anymore. The problem is with my nervous system.  Everyone warns me against going back up - that my nervous system won't be able to handle it or that I'll develop a neurotoxicity and get way sicker. With benzos, you can die and go into seizures if you go back up after the 3 week window. Not to mention how much harder it's going to be when I try to taper off again. I may even drop back down to 22.5 again because I might be worse since upping my dose. 

 

I can't find anyone with cases like mine. Tapering cymbalta while already in benzo withdrawal so there doesnt seem to be anywhere I can turn. It feels so hopeless. I just need off the damm drugs once and for all.  

[fishinghat]

"Your system will be very sensitive after the benzo withdrawal, so I think the issue here is that you hit the cymbalta withdrawal too soon before things had righted themselves."

I fully agree with IUNs statement.

"my body isn't craving that missed cymbalta anymore. "

I think I need to explain something here. Cymbalta is not addictive. Addictive medicine causes very low dopamine levels during withdrawal and the patient will do anything to get another "fix". Your symptoms aren't from having Cymbalta IN your system but rather your absence of it. Let me explain. When one starts on a new antidepressant the drug (in this case Cymbalta) will NOT attach to the synapses in your brain. Its shape is not quite right. It takes your synapses a few weeks to adjust and accept the new medicine and that is why it takes so long for a new antidepressant to kick in. Once you have been on it a few months the synapses are able to bond with the Cymbalta easily.

When you come off the Cymbalta the synapses will not bond with the regular neurotransmitter (serotonin or norepinephrine). These synapses once again have to adjust their shape to be able to use the neurotransmitters appropriately and that takes a long time. So as you drop and the symptoms get worse then updosing usually brings relieve fairly fast as the synapses will still be shaped to fit the Cymbalta molecule and bring back some stability. This process is based on stereochemistry and is well documented.

Tapering back down later will repeat the withdrawal but if you taper slower the symptoms won't be as bad.

The decision is yours however and if the thought of increasing dose causes you extra anxiety then maybe you should stay where you are at. The extra anxiety won't be good for you either. You have our support all the way.

[invalidusername]

Yes.. our support will never "taper"

 

And don't be too harsh on yourself to call it a stupid decision. You did what you felt was right.

 

Without mistakes we do not learn.

[ForLyla]

Sorry I'm just super frustrated and having to feel this way all the time. I just can't catch a break. So I've taken 5 pills at 25mg now and I feel no better - perhaps even worse than before. What would you do in my case fishinghat? Upping my dose doesn't appear to be working in my case. I'm assuming because it's destabilizing my benzo withdrawal syndrome. I can barely even see today - my eyes are so sensitive to light and blurry.

 

I think I need to be in a  complete state of homeostasis for a long time where nothing is disturbing my nervous system. 

[invalidusername]

I think it will take a few more days to see clear results from this. Whilst Hat would agree that with a short half-life, Cymbalta tends to react quicker than other SNRI/SSRI's, this can still take 7-10 days in some cases, noting that updosing from Citalopram/Lexapro (with double the half-life) can take a good 2-3 weeks. I might be wrong...

 

Your frustration is really understood. I am myself going into my 7th month of side effects and most days I just want to throw stuff around my flat in frustration. 

 

You won't be destabalising your benzo withdrawal in what you are doing. Benzos work on a completely different set of receptors (GABA) in the brain to those occupied by Cymbalta (5-HT, NE) - so don't worry about this as it will cause more anxiety for you. 

[ForLyla]

They do work on different receptors but both wreck havoc on your nervous system and anything seems to throw it into insanity. You guys were right that my blood pressure is lower than usual. Should I do anything about that? I have been super dizzy since updosing. On a seperate note, have any thoughts on cbd to deal with this? 

[fishinghat]

"I think I need to be in a complete state of homeostasis for a long time where nothing is disturbing my nervous system."

It looks like you may be right.

With all do respect to IUN who is very knowledgeable, I do believe 5 days is enough, at least to show some significant improvement.

As far as aggravating your benzo withdrawal I believe that IUN is right. Having said that any Cymbalta withdrawal you are experiencing will aggravate the benzo withdrawal ANYTHING that adds stress to your system will increase your benzo withdrawal symptoms.

What is your bp running lately?

I do have a suggestion. There is a product called Lion's Mane Mushroom. It works similar to L-Theanine but does not cause the sleepiness or lower bp. This is an old Chinese medicine product that has been around over 3,000 years and has been heavily studied. It contains many components that help with nerve repair, new nerve growth, controlling gaba and glutamate balance (that is why it helps with withdrawal) and other beneficial effects. There is a detailed discussion on this site I will try to find and post a link to it. It is key to realize that Lion's Mane comes in several forms....as a water extract, double heat treated, alcohol extract and the dry mushroom itself. For withdrawals the double heated version contains most of what you need at this point. I will also post a link to this product is a little bit.

There is also clonidine and/or hydroxyzine which are prescription meds that are often prescribed for antidepressant and benzo withdrawal. Neither are addictive nor do they cause withdrawal but they can lower bp more so would probably not be a good option at this point. By the way, the drop in bp when you went up in the Cymbalta should subside in a few days. I will see what else I can find in my library of info that may help. Be back soon.

[fishinghat]

https://www.walmart....sules/666873137

Do NOT buy this same product on Amazon right now. It is twice as high and the company selling it seldome delivers on time.

[fishinghat]

https://www.cymbalta...-mane-mushroom/

Detailed information on Lion's Mane Mushroom. By the way considering your bp is low I would stay away from the L-Theanine.

Also, if you are comfortable with it. I would like to know what meds you are on and the dosage (All meds/supplements not just psychiatric) to see if there may be a conflict there as well.

[gail]

ForLyla,

There are many supplements that you can take as you can see.

I believe that you live in Canada, if so, you can buy Benadryl Total, they come in cap!ets.
For the time your anxiety is through the roof, I caplet and a half will rid you of all anxiety for five or six hours. You will be drowsy, but a good drowsy. It was a life saver for me. And much better than a benzo.

Suntheanine is a great one that I will start this week. Lion's Mane. Plus a few other ones that we are testing.

You need to get the anxiety under control so to function better. Love, Gail

[invalidusername]

If Hat says 5 days is sufficient, I will not argue as he has be here longer than me (both on the site and our terrestrial home!).

 

It will be interesting to see the effects of the Lion's mane in more people Still on the suntheanine this end, but when the stock is low, I think I will give it a try.

 

Gail - keep us posted on the suntheanine progress.

[fishinghat]

Some things members have found to help.

 

Dramamine
Helps with lightheadedness, jolts, dizzy spells, sleep, nausea, brain swooshes, calming, motion sickness, brain zaps, Sloshy head, and anxiety.

Bonine -
Active ingredients (in each tablet) Meclizine HCI 25 mg.
Meclizine
Taken for headaches, nausea, dizziness, brain zaps.

Zantac
Acid control, uspet stomach and fights anxiety
Does not lower bp or cause sleepiness. Because of its long term effect on the liver my drs recommend to take it every day for a month then off it for a month. This is a standard part of my withdrawal procedures, It doesn;t cure everything but it does make a noticable difference.

Diphenhydramine, (over the counter) also known as Benadryl, is an antihistamine and as such is not only used for allergies/colds but also as a sleep aide. It does have a mild anxiolytic effect. May lower blood pressure and cause irregular heartbeats. Your body does build up tolerance to it after a few weeks. This medicine has many drug interactions.

Omega 3
Dose - Omega 3 is recommended at 2000 to 3000 mg/day EPA and DHA for anxiety, give or take a couple hundred depending on what research you read. It has been shown that only the EPA and DHA components effect anxiety. Any other omega 3 fatty acids don't do anything for anxiety. Life Extensions, Mega EPA/DHA, is distilled (molecularly purified) so you don't get any impurities with your product plus it contains no mercury. Some even provide a certificate of analysis if requested. They also have ones that are enteric coated now that will not irritate the digestive track and has no fish burbs to them.

Ginger
Helps with nausea and stomach issues.

Melatonin
FH - a research article where it was shown that taking 3 mg of melatonin under the tongue (sublingual) helps with anxiety. Place it under the tongue until dissolved and gone. In case you are not familiar with melatonin it is the chemical your body produces in the evening to make you sleepy and ready for bed. It will cause sleepiness unless taken in a real small dose. May lower bp.

Nutritional Blood Tests for Causes for Anxiety and/or Depression.
Items proceeded by an asterisk are analysis that are routinely performed by many Psychiatrists. Those proceeded by two astericks are ones that members have found to cause anxiety and/or depression.
Omega 3 and 6
Amino Acids
to include...
**Tryptophan
Threonine
Isoleucine
Methionine
Phenylalanine
Tyrosine

Vitamins
to include...
C
** *D
E
*B vitamins (**B-6)


Minerals
Calcium
Iron
**Magnesium
Potassium
Sodium
**Zinc
Manganese
**Selenium

Lipid Profile
Cholesterol
Triglycerides

Misc.
Choline
Flouride

Psychiatrists also often perform the following tests
**Testosterone
**Estrogen
*Thyroid Function
*Liver Function - (FH - The AD manufacturers usually recommend an annual Liver Function Test (LFT) to keep an eye on that issue.
Parathyroid Function
Pituitary Function

 

Clonidine
Clonidine is a classic blood pressure medicine BUT it is very effective on anxiety. It is an alpha adrenergic antagonist which means it stimulates the alpha adrenaline synapses located in the frontal lobes of the brain. When these synapses are stimulated by the clonidine the brain thinks that it is due to adrenaline and it tells the adrenal gland to produce less adrenaline. It is a little slow to kick in, about an hour and a half. It has a 12 hour half life. Most drs prescribe 0.1 mg twice a day. One to be taken about an hour before bedtime and the other in the morning. Because it decreases adrenaline it has a strong calming effect which helps a person get to sleep and stay a sleep. It is not unusual for people to have a little drowsiness from clonidine until they get use to it (1 or 2 weeks). It does NOT work faster sublingual (under the tongue) like benzos. These have no withdrawal but your blood pressure may spike for a couple weeks if you cold turkey. Due to the lowering of blood pressure and sleepiness it is common for the patient to start with ½ tablet at bedtime. Once the patient adjusts to the medicine they begin a ½ tablet in the morning. As sleepiness and blood pressure stabilize they are slowly worked up to the 2 tablets (0.1 mg each) a day.

Hydroxyzine, (Vistaril, Atarax) - is an H(1)R antagonist, is very effective against anxiety in most people but some get no help from it at all. It is not addictive nor does it have withdrawal but it also can lower blood pressure some but that usually goes away with time. This medicine should be started slowly to give your body a chance to adjust to the blood pressure effect. Normal dose is 25 mg four times a day but can go as high as 400mg/day.

Atenolol is a beta 1 adrenergic receptor antagonist, also known as a beta blocker. It does not pass through the blood brain barrier which limits its side effects compared to other beta blockers. It has been linked to a higher risk of type 2 diabetes. It may cause drowsiness and lower blood pressure. Typical dosage around 25 mg four times/day. Dosage should be slowly increased.
Buspirone (Buspar) is a seratonin 5-HT1A receptor partial agonist and a dopamine antagonist at the receptors. It functions as a weak anti-anxiety medication similar to diazepam in strength (a weak benzo). No withdrawal or tolerance issues. Dosage should be kept low if taking a ssri and/or snri or St. John's Wort as it may cause seratonin syndrome. DO NOT take with grapefruit or grapefruit juice. May lower blood pressure. Typical dosage is 10 to 20 mg three times per day.

Dos and Don'ts

DON'T ...
take Omeprazole (Prilosec)
Significant drug interactions.
omeprazole ↔ citalopram
Applies to omeprazole and Celexa (citalopram)
Talk to your doctor before using citalopram together with omeprazole. Combining these medications may increase the blood levels of citalopram and increase the risk of certain side effects, including an irregular heart rhythm that may be serious or life-threatening.
Caution - Omeprazole causes the increased absorbtion of nearly 500 medications. It should NOT be taken with.....
Benzos, Atenolol, Celexa, Lexapro and many other ssri and snri, st. john's wort, etc.
take St. John's Wort, 5HTP, tryptophan, SAMe, Dextromethorphan (a cough syrup/cold medicine) with an antidepressant - Serotonin Syndrome.

Don't take Stimulants (Make anxiety worse)
Caffeine
Over-the-counter cold preparations contain phenylpropylamine and pseudoephedrine*
Sleep deprivation
m*********
Magnesium*
MSG
Alcohol
Stress
amphetamines
ecstasy
nicotine
Ginseng
L-Tyrosine
B Vitamins*
aspartame
Coconut Oil
Taurine
DHEA
Ginkgo
Iodine
Arginine
Sugar
Kava
* - Only some people have this reaction.

Things containing caffeine..
Coffee, Espresso, Cappuccino, some Teas, Low calorie, non-cola soda containing aspartame, Low calorie colas containing aspartame or saccharine, Energy drinks, Some types of alcoholic drinks.
Chocolate ....Baking, Dark, Sweet and semisweet, Pudding, Cereals, Fudge , Milk chocolate, Syrup, Mousse, Soymilk, Fat free cookies, Cookies, Cake, Frozen Yogurt, Ice cream, Frosting, and Shakes .
Java Pops, Chai Mints, Green Tea, Warp Mints, Penguin mints, and cinnamons. Caffeinated Energy Strips, Caffeinated Fruity Lollipops, HyDrive Energy Chews, Caffeinated Nixie Tubes, Foosh Energy Mints, Atomic Energy Bites, Buzz Bites, KickBricks, Energy Chews, Reload Energy Strips, Movit Gummies, Caffeinated jellybeans, Morning Spark, Oatmeal, Sumseeds (caffeinated sunflower seeds), Lightning Rods (beef sticks), Engobi "Energy Go Bites" (crispy snacks), Jolt Gum, Blitz Energy Gum, Think Gum Stay Alert, Vibe Black, Black Go Fast!, Dozens and dozens of herbal supplements.
https://www.caffeine...ffeine-database
List of energy drinks with caffiene. (over 100)

Don't take Depressants (Make depression worse)
Oxalic acid is found in members of the spinach family and cabbage, broccoli, brussels sprouts, chives and lamb's quarters are high in oxalates, as are sorrel and parsley. Rhubarb leaves contain about 0.5% oxalic acid.
Can cause depression, lack of minerals, kidney stones, and more. Cooking does not affect oxalic acid. People with kidney disease, a history of kidney stones or suffer from depression should avoid these foods.
other depressants:
Aspartame
Gluten
High Fat Dairy
Sugar
alcohol
Trans fats
Sodium
Caffiene
Pesticide residue on foods
GHB
exposure to organic solvents (paint, varnish, stains, cleaning solvents, paint thinner, etc).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do
take 500 mg of vitamin C per day or 300 mg of NAC - (N-acety cysteine) an antioxidant
learn Cognative Behavioral Therapy or Mindfulness
sleep as much as possible
Keeping a Journal - Don't trust your memory durinmg withdrawal.
Stay hydrated

[ForLyla]

All I take is 25mg of cymbalta and Omegas. I don't really have any interest in taking anything else apart from CBD. I'm not sure how it would work for me now but it worked wonders last year when I went through benzo WD. 

 

What is a good taper plan for someone in my case? 1 bead a week? 5% a month? 

[fishinghat]

IUN is our resident expert on CBD and it can be very helpful. I am sure he can chip in later.

 

In your case I would suggest 1 bead a week and if that doesn't cause any problems then you can go to 1 bead every 3 or 4 days and keep working your way up until it starts to bite. I would NOT recommend going over 1 bead a day.