182 replies to this topic

[gail]

Fisherman, are you at less than 1mg?

[fishinghat]

I am right at 1 mg per day.

[fishinghat]

Well my 3 times per day Lion's Mane dose has started to poop out on me.
26 days on 2 x day before it pooped out
21 days on 3 x day before it pooped out

I will drop reduce from a drop of 0.87% every 3 days to 0,67% every 3 days and see if the 3 times a day Lion's Mane will hold me steady at that level or continue to poop out. 2 to 3 drops of sublingual melatonin continues to do well when symptoms occur. I use it about once or twice a week.

[fishinghat]

OK, as indicated above my Lion 's Mane mushroom pooped out so I dropped to 0.67% drop every 3 days but the 3 x a day of the mushroom juice did nothing. completely pooped out. I stopped it the 4th of April. Once stable on my withdrawal rate of 0.50% every 3 days I will start with my testing of Suntheanine.

It is interesting to note that my original drop rate was 0.33% every 3 days before I started messing with the supplements. With just the NAC, Zantac and occasionally 2 drops of melatonin I can stay at 0.50% drop rate.

I will probably start up the Suntheanine around the 10th.

[invalidusername]

You'll miss all these little experiments once you have finished the withdrawal!!

 

Interested to see how you get on with the Suntheanine - as you know, it didn't do a great deal for the wife of myself, so have got the ashwagandha in place for when I need the occasional boost 

[fishinghat]

"You'll miss all these little experiments once you have finished the withdrawal!!"

Not even!!

[fishinghat]

OK, all went well at the drs office today BUT....my low white blood cell count went down and my low t3 and t4 thyroid enzymes dropped more.
 
I have stopped the Lion's Mane mushroom for 8 weeks and retest to see if things return to previous levels. If not then I will stop the N-acetylcysteine and see if that helps.
 
Here is a copy of a note I sent my dr.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4938103/

The effect of N-acetylcysteine on oxidative serum biomarkers of hemodialysis patients

"The study period was set at 6 months, during which time patients received oral 600 mg of NAC, twice daily before meals. "
"Administration of NAC was correlated with significant changes in haemoglobin levels (p=0.029), a decrease in leukocyte count (p=0.002), in particular, neutrophil percentage (p=0.001) while lymphocytes rose (p=0.008). "

In addition, the FDA database states that 1.4% of those taking N-acetycysteine develop leucopenia within a month.

Dr. xxxxxxx - This may be an issue as the blood parameter changes noted in this study resemble my changes in blood chemistry. I am currently taking 600 mg once daily.

I will stay off the Lion's Mane until my test in 8 weeks and if no improvement in WBC and/or TSH/t3/t4 then I will come off the N-acetylcysteine and retest. It is interesting to note that many drs prescribe N-acetylcysteine for hypothyroidism as it is a precursor to glutathione.

[invalidusername]

So your p-doc... is he informed of the supplements you try before you take them, or doe he have a say in what goes?

 

I didn't realise the NAC could significantly reduce WBC as outlined in that paper. So what it the target here regarding the WBC?

 

Admittedly the p-docs over here have experience with the usual anti-depressants, but it would appear there is little more to go on. Supplements would never be entertained as a solution. For them, the answers always lie in the pill. If I mentioned CBD or Kratom they would fall off their chair!

[fishinghat]

I didn't see my pdoc IUN. I saw my Primary care dr who specializes in anxiety and depression patients. She will not do psych treatment but is trained in it which is unusual for a family dr.  I also saw my endocrinologist. My drs allow me to do my own research ahead of time and try supplements on my own or I would get a new dr. Some are initially hesitant but just like this time I brought all my research with me on Lion's Mane Mushroom which sometimes they keep or not.

[invalidusername]

I think it is great that they allow you to do this. After all, you only want what is best for yourself. None of the information that I have printed and taken into appointments has been read or taken away. As I have said before, they simply do not like it. You either stand in line and do what you are told, or you get pushed to the back of the queue. 

 

Doing research ahead of time makes perfect sense. You need answers to questions, for which you need questions in the first place. This is why I don't want to waste any more time on both of my AD's. One p-doc could say Citalopram, another p-doc would say Lexapro. As you always say - flip a coin.

 

Well either of us could do that

[fishinghat]

Well, I was 'informed' by Mrs Fishinghat last night that if there is any concern over N-acetyl cysteine or Lion's Mane Mushroom effecting my wbc or thyroid enzymes then stop both now. Don't mess with your wbc or thyroid. Being the good husband I am I said "Yes ma'am". I will retest in the 8 weeks and if the blood work has returned to previous levels I guess I will stay with my original drop rate.

[invalidusername]

I think she is right. Dangerous territory regardless of how exciting your expedited drop rate is using the supplements.

[invalidusername]

Just doing a little background reading and wondered, considering your line of OTC supplement trials, if you had tried/considered L-acetyl carnitine?

[fishinghat]

I had not. Why particularly does that one stand out to you as a possibility?

[invalidusername]

Primarily the antioxidant and anti-anxiety effects;

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15383157

 

https://peerj.com/articles/5309/

 

http://accurateclini...ession-2014.pdf

 

Last is the only human test I have looked at so far, and whilst tested for depression, they also included anxiety ratings with some interesting results;

 

"The results showed that mean BDI and State-trait anxiety inventory (STAI) scores were signifcantly lower in the ALC group than in the PBO group at day 90 (for both, P < 0.001)."

 

Just thought I would throw it out there for your own curiosity.

[gail]

My hat to Madame Fishinghat!

For the rest, I don't understand much of your conversation, but you two seem to be able to follow one another. You are so bright.

[fishinghat]

I have already copied your info IUN and will start my research on the matter soon. Thank you.

[invalidusername]

Always a pleasure - may amount to nothing, but worth looking at all available options.

[fishinghat]

Well IUN, here is what I came up with for...
(unluckily, the effect on the thyroid eliminates it for me)


L-acetyl carnitine

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15383157
Effect of intraperitoneal acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) on anxiety-like behaviours in rats.
Levine J1, Kaplan Z, Pettegrew JW, McClure RJ, Gershon S, Buriakovsky I, Cohen H.

https://peerj.com/articles/5309/
Anxiolytic and anti-stress effects of acute administration of acetyl-L-carnitine in zebrafish
Lais Pancotto​1, Ricieri Mocelin​2, Matheus Marcon2, Ana P. Herrmann1, Angelo Piato​1,2,3

http://accurateclini...ession-2014.pdf
A review of current evidence for acetyl-L-carnitine in the treatment of depression

"The results showed that mean BDI and State-trait anxiety inventory (STAI) scores were signifcantly lower in the ALC group than in the PBO group at day 90 (for both, P < 0.001)."

https://www.nature.c...ticles/mp201668
Stress-induced structural plasticity of medial amygdala stellate neurons and rapid prevention by a candidate antidepressant
T Lau, B Bigio, D Zelli, B S McEwen & C Nasca

https://ihrmagazine....mood-disorders/
Acetyl-L-carnitine for depression and mood disorders

https://www.ncbi.nlm...d meta-analysis
Acetyl-L-Carnitine Supplementation and the Treatment of Depressive Symptoms: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis.
Veronese N1, Stubbs B, Solmi M, Ajnakina O, Carvalho AF, Maggi S.
a total of 791 (human) participants
...showed that ALC significantly reduced depressive symptoms.
In these latter RCTs, the incidence of adverse effects was significantly lower in the ALC group than in the antidepressant group. Subgroup analyses suggested that ALC was most efficacious in older adults.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30917915
Acetyl-L-carnitine as a putative candidate for the treatment of stress-related psychiatric disorders: Novel evidence from a zebrafish model.
Marcon M1, Mocelin R1, de Oliveira DL2, da Rosa Araujo AS3, Herrmann AP4, Piato A5.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6112703/
Acetyl-l-carnitine deficiency in patients with major depressive disorder.
Nasca C1, Bigio B2,3, Lee FS4,5, Young SP6,7, Kautz MM8, Albright A5, Beasley J7, Millington DS6,7, Mathé AA9, Kocsis JH5, Murrough JW8, McEwen BS1, Rasgon N2,10.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21443422
Acetyl-L-carnitine reduces depression and improves quality of life in patients with minimal hepatic encephalopathy.
Malaguarnera M1, Bella R, Vacante M, Giordano M, Malaguarnera G, Gargante MP, Motta M, Mistretta A, Rampello L, Pennisi G.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3607061/
L-acetylcarnitine causes rapid antidepressant effects through the epigenetic induction of mGlu2 receptors
Carla Nasca,a,1 Dionysios Xenos,a Ylenia Barone,b Alessandra Caruso,a Sergio Scaccianoce,a Francesco Matrisciano,a Giuseppe Battaglia,c Aleksander A. Mathé,d Anna Pittaluga,e Luana Lionetto,f Maurizio Simmaco,f and Ferdinando Nicoletti
The rapid and long-lasting antidepressant action of LAC strongly suggests a unique approach to examine the epigenetic hypothesis of depressive disorders in humans, paving the way for more efficient antidepressants with faster onset of action.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3773672/
Upregulation of mGlu2 Receptors via NF-κB p65 Acetylation Is Involved in the Proneurogenic and Antidepressant Effects of Acetyl-L-Carnitine
Bruna Cuccurazzu,1,2,4 Valeria Bortolotto,1,2,4 Maria Maddalena Valente,1,2 Federica Ubezio,1,2 Aleardo Koverech,3 Pier Luigi Canonico,2 and Mariagrazia Grilli1,2,*


https://www.webmd.co...tyl-l-carnitine

Side Effects & Safety
Acetyl-L-carnitine is LIKELY SAFE for most adults and POSSIBLY SAFE for most children when taken by mouth. It can cause some side effects including stomach upset, nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, headache, and restlessness. It can also cause a "fishy" odor of the urine, breath, and sweat.

Acetyl-L-carnitine is POSSIBLY SAFE for most adults when given intravenously (by IV). Use only under medical supervision.
Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Not enough is known about the use of acetyl-L-carnitine during pregnancy and breast-feeding. Stay on the safe side and avoid use.

Bipolar disorder: Acetyl-L-carnitine might worsen symptoms in people with bipolar disorder who are currently in remission.

Nerve pain (neuropathy) caused by chemotherapy: Acetyl-L-carnitine might worsen symptoms in some people with nerve pain caused by a class of chemotherapy drugs known as taxanes.

Under-active thyroid (hypothyroidism): There is some concern that acetyl-L-carnitine might interfere with thyroid hormone. Don't use acetyl-L-carnitine if you have an under-active thyroid.

Seizures: An increase in the number or seriousness of seizures has been reported in people with a history of seizures who have used L-carnitine by mouth or by IV (intravenously). Since L-carnitine is related to acetyl-L-carnitine, there is a concern that this might also occur with acetyl-L-carnitine. If you have ever had a seizure, don't take acetyl-L-carnitine.

[invalidusername]

Marvellous! I am just off to work for a while, but I will have a read up later...

[invalidusername]

For some reason the review link didn't work, but as it was the last one I found I had already read required parts.

 

Bloody typical that it was found to be significantly better for "older adults". You guys seem to get all the breaks! Comparable results to those along side those taking AD's too - really makes you wonder why these things aren't tried before, especially given the proven reduction of adverse effects. Its the l-tryptophan story all over again.

 

Also wouldn't take too much attention from the webmd site as you well know who owns and runs that site? They wouldn't want people using this stuff instead of AD's!!

 

Some great finds here - thanks for sharing. I would certainly say it would be worth a shot specifically in the MDD circles where other avenues have been unsuccessful - as Nasca's paper says that MDD patients show significantly reduced levels of ALC - must be something to that. Interesting too where they mentioned that treatment resistant patients often have issues tied back to childhood, thus meaning circumstances in infancy can therefore reduce such chemicals in the brain, thus leading to later life depression. Wow... all comes together. If only Freud was around to read some of this today!!

 

Also followed a link to the Hope for Depression Research Foundation - nice collection of reads there which they have funded;

 

https://www.hopeford...h-publications/

 

Overall, a good addition to the library. Thanks again Hat.

[fishinghat]

Well, I thought I would post an update on an old subject of mine. For those who are new after my Cymbalta withdrawal (March of 2013) I was left with PSSD (Post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction). It is a condition characterized by loss of all sexual feelings and function, lost of testosterone production in both men and women, vaginal dryness in women and numbness of the sexual organs. Being the curious type  I started digging into what can be done to help relieve this issue. Prescription ED meds have had a lot of research done and that shows they are of no benefit for PSSD. I saw 3 specialists, all familiar with the condition and all said they had no medical treatment for this condition. I started digging into all the forums on this subject and many people tried many things but nearly all with no success. One thing I did note was that many people (both men and women)said that after 5 to 7 years activity began to slowly return. It is now been a little over 6 years and I am happy to say things are slowly (and I mean slowly) improving.

 

Many members ask "How long do Cymbalta withdrawal symptoms/effects last?". Most fade away within 6 months to 2 years of the last dose. The only thing I know of that can last longer than this is tinnitus. Some of our members have had the tinnitus last 2 to 5 years and the PSSD seems to also be in that kind of time frame. So when you think "When will this all end" remember you might as well take your time and wean slow. It could last a while.

[invalidusername]

That is simply amazing - the plasticity of the brain keeps on going until the jobs done! So there is no doubt that this theory is quite solid, and whilst it is certainly a shame that you have had to endure PSSD for as long as you have, this new found glimmer must be a wonderful thing to acknowledge. 

[gail]

Wow, Sir, that is good news! Good for you. I'm happy for you both. Patience has again paid off when you lease expect it! Love.

[fishinghat]

Thank you all for the kind words. It is a shame that effects of a withdrawal can last so long. Who would have thought.

[Vinpin]

Hi FH .... thought I would drop by on your thread and check out your own recent withdrawal trials and tribulations ....

 

I commend you for have the resilience to make it through your various withdrawals! It sounds like its been a tough road, but you are a survivor!!! Wish I could help you as you have helped me .... but alas, maybe my well wishes and words of encouragement will suffice instead .....

 

So, I have read most of your thread (including all of your own posts on this thread) - all great info for the rest of us. I was not aware of the Benzo link to Dementia ... will follow up on my thread with a question for you on this.

 

But the following is unclear to me:

 

1) Are you completely off of the Lorazepam now?

 

2) Did you ever wind up trying out the Suntheanine?

 

Best wishes and pats on the back for a job well done ......

 

-Vince

[fishinghat]

Thanks kind words Vinpin

It is all about going slow and then slowing down more. lol

1) Down to 0.88 mg a day on the Lorazepam. Should be off in about a year.

2( Did not try the Suntheanine yet. With the question about the Lion's Mane possibly causing the wbc issue and having to retest in a couple weeks I did not want to throw another variable in the mix.

[Vinpin]

FH,

 

You are very wise about regarding your "another variable in the mix" comment. I am a Statistician by trade, and am also sensitive to (and not happy about) our own bodies needing to host controlled experiments of sorts. I need to remember that mantra, when I want to "lunge in desperation" toward new medicinal remedies.

 

Another "statistical" type of circumstance we should all be aware of is the "placebo effect". We don't want to fall into a trap of assuming an improved condition in our withdrawal symptoms is necessarily because we suddenly started something new. Our minds tend to think as much ..... but in reality, it could just be our perceptions change despite no actual change in a physical symptom, OR .... the physical symptom is indeed better, but for a different reason other than the most recent change we made.

 

Geez ... such a long, long time to come off the Lorazepam! But again, going slow means you'll succeed at both goals, ultimately - avoiding the disastrous effects of Dementia, while avoiding the withdrawal side effects. Good for you!

 

Here's to hoping that WBC count issue is rectified in a couple of weeks.......

 

-Vince

[invalidusername]

Interesting what you say there Vin, and yes, the more variables only leads to a decreased confidence interval in most cases!! You got to love the statistic lingo... I'll be on about chi-squared analyses next

 

I have always found the way that Hat, yourself and I approach these mental health conundrums to be a blessing and a curse. I for one HAVE to know what is causing a symptom, otherwise I cannot rest. For example, this morning, as Hat is already aware, I had a conflicting issue whereby I woke with very positive thoughts, yet my mood was worryingly low - who is in charge here? Spent the rest of the day pooing myself that it could happen again.

 

But with knowledge comes calm in these cases, and the best people to be undertaking such things is the one who has the most vested interest in you getting better... you! It is a paradoxical situation - particularly during withdrawal when your mental faculties are already on the fritz...

[fishinghat]

"particularly during withdrawal when your mental faculties are already on the fritz..."

Oh how true.