894 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

Sounds good.

[KathyInFL]

When I google N=Acetylcysteine, it says prescription sometimes needed. What does that mean?? Why wouldn't a prescription never or always been needed for something?

[fishinghat]

Drs often write prescriptions for normal over the counter products when they are useful for specific medical conditions. This then gets the insurance to pay for the product.

In the case of N-Acetylcysteine it would be written for the treatment of Tylenol poisoning even though it is available over the counter. I have had drs write prescriptions for Zantac, vitamin C, and many other common items.

[invalidusername]

Well... I have been back to the hospital.

 

I woke and was in such a state without a thought - just shaking, body tensed, head spinning... all of which soon led to a seizure. The MH team told me to call for medical support and they sent medics. I had another seizure while they were here and they took me right off to hospital. Still shaking all the way there and for an hour waiting to be seen. Then the doctor came and told me to just go home.... She told me that I was speaking (although stuttering) so there was nothing wrong with my brain so I am in no danger. I asked her why the medics decided I needed to come to hospital, and she said that I didn't and just to go home.

 

Stood outside for 35 minutes waiting for a cab, £30 later and I am back in bed... still shaking and worried for the next seizure. Just cannot relax anything.

 

I am sick of the health service in the UK. Absolutely sick of it. 

[fishinghat]

Terrible, terrible. My heart sympathizes for your situation.

[KathyInFL]

I am so sorry for you IUN, hopefully hou are feeling a bit better right now? 

[invalidusername]

Quick update - I had broken sleep, but still managed to get enough rest. I woke still feeling very nervously broken and laid in bed for some time. This is clearly stress that has built up from getting worked up about the adrenergic state over the last 3 weeks, and the iron tablet was the last straw. Angry that I got carted off to hospital for no reason as this has not done anxiety any favours.

 

It occurred to me that Hat hit a point of fear after 2 months off Cymbalta, and I am scared I am going the same way. Sorry to use your example Hat, but what the Cymbalta has done is a frightening thing. I just want some control of myself back.

[gail]

Oh Scrat,

I was wondering where you were, now I know. How I wish that I could make it all disappear!
You
I can only ask God to lay a hand on your shoulder to make you feel safe and strong. Lovage!

[invalidusername]

Thanks Gailage - prayers are much appreciated at the moment. Trying to keep myself busy on the laptop while resting in bed. In a lot of pain

[fishinghat]

A couple days ago you mentioned something in a post about scientists not being able to measure serotonin and other neurotransmitters in the brain. That is not completely accurate. Use of fMRI, SPECT and PET scans of the brain can measure concentrations of many biochemical parameters in the brain. Some can be measured directly by the intensity of a certain wavelength of light that is shown in the scan. Others can be measured by using certain rabies virus tracing methods (other viruses as well) which attach to specific biochemicals and cause fluorescence that can be picked up by the imaging process.

[invalidusername]

Funny you should mention this as I was reading about that exact thing last night. I will return to this in due course...

 

What I did want to mention is the current chronic fatigue. There is no doubt in my mind that what you say is 100% and that I am suffering adrenal fatigue, and from what I have read, it is the overproduction of cortisol that is constantly triggering the release of adrenaline. This started 3 weeks ago, and my adrenal glands are now so depleted that I can barely function. Am I correct so far?

 

I am looking specifically into supplements that can support me, and to get some assistance so I can at least work. Hallmarks are easily stressed or paniced, never felt like I have slept, get a second wind late evening/night, had headache constantly for 3 days now - and obviously the muscle twitching and shaking.

 

I NEED to get this under control some how. Any advice at all on adrenal support meds I am looking at on Amazon...?

 

https://www.amazon.c...&rnid=419157031

[fishinghat]

Be very careful IUN.

First of all...

Adrenal Fatigue or hypoadrenia is a factious condition believed in alternative medicine, to be the state when adrenal glands are exhausted and unable to produce adequate quantities of hormones, primarily the glucocorticoid cortisol, due to chronic stress or infections. Adrenal fatigue should not be confused with actual forms of adrenal dysfunction such as adrenal insufficiency or Addison's disease. - Wiki

http://www.cymbaltaw...tion#entry61576
Information on Dr. Tracy and adrenal fatigue.

Studies have shown that adrenaline levels do not bottom out during prolonged stress although cortisol does remain elevated. You are not suffering from a lack of adrenaline but an over abundance (chronic adrenergic state).

In addition, the products you are looking at are varied in their effects. Some like the Solaray, Adrenal Caps will elevate adrenaline levels. You must carefully research each ingredients to find the one that will aim at reducing adrenaline levels.

[invalidusername]

I got confused by trying to write this post before going off to work... and of course, you are absolutely right as I do recall this fictional terminology of adrenal fatigue - but I wasn't thinking in terms of it not supplying enough, more that it was still doing its job over and above what is required, which is what you have reiterated - but my thanks for bringing this back to my attention.

 

Apologies for confusion.

 

I also meant to include a reference to the NAC that we spoke of earlier. What is confusing me is the direct cause of the oversupply, and I have been looking into the effects of the neopinephrine and how this stacks up with the cortisol production, but have only managed to confuse myself further. 

 

Some articles state that neopinephrine is also released by the adrenal glands, but I was under the impression it was confined to the brain? So I do not know what is the root cause of the end-result of the overproduction of adrenaline, and therefore how best to treat it while my brain is on the mend.

 

I have read about NAC - but with only 1 study referencing the reduction of cortisol.. in animal studies. But if cortisol is not the culprit, then this is a moot point. I also considered restocking my ashwagandha supply - or do I opt for the suntheanine first?

 

This is what I wanted to ask!! Now that I am not rushing off anywhere, I hope it is a bit more coherent!!

[fishinghat]

You don't need to apologize IUN. All is well.

Norepinephrine is primarily produced in the brain and the adrenal gland. It is also produced in limited quantities in the primary nerve cells of the spinal cord and major nerves.

The root cause of the over production of adrenaline centers around the frontal lobes. They contain alpha 2 adrenergic receptors that are stimulated by both adrenaline and norepinephrine. The frontal lobes interprets these signals as a reflection of the concentration of these two neurotransmitters. As the amount of norepinephrine and/or adrenaline increases during stress the frontal lobes pick up this increased signal and in return slows the sympathetic nerve signals to the adrenal gland which reduces the production of these two neurotransmitters. HOWEVER. If the stress is long term and over production of these two goes on for a long time the frontal lobes adapt and consider this the new normal level of norepinephrine and adrenaline. The signal to the adrenal gland is maintained to support this level of production. Therefore the high level of adrenaline/norepinephrine continues.

To put it more simply, long periods of stress produces a state of high adrenaline/norepinephrine that retrains the frontal lobes that this is the new normal. Therefore a chronic condition develops of high levels of these two neurotransmitters.

[invalidusername]

Right - I am with you now. So in effect, the information that the frontal lobes held about the supply is written according to our individual circumstances. My stress responses of late have directly called for additional levels of adrenaline, the brain delivers, thus a new baseline is written into the frontal lobes. 

 

Is that much right?

 

And this "information" held in the frontal lobes will be overwritten again once I calm down?

 

However, it appears to me that this went out of kilter as a result of the stress of cymbalta withdrawal, the pregabalin issues and the lexapro start up. No other "life stresses" have occurred. 

 

So now that this is straight, given that Ashwagandha is an adaptogen and can be ruled out of the mix for now - do you still feel the NAC would be the best way forward? Or the Suntheanine? 

[fishinghat]

"Is that much right?"

Right on!!

"And this "information" held in the frontal lobes will be overwritten again once I calm down?"

Again, correct.

"...this went out of kilter as a result of the stress of cymbalta withdrawal, the pregabalin issues and the lexapro start up."

That is certainly enough stress and it does last for a while (unluckily). There have been a few research articles written about withdrawal from antidepressants to generate long lasting anxiety even in patients with no history of previous mental illness. If the withdrawal is bad enough and lasts long enough it generates a condition similar to PTSD.

I would recommend the Suntheanine first. It has a proven track record of helping Cymbalta withdrawal.

[invalidusername]

Marvellous - thank you so much Hat for straightening this out.

 

I will find some Suntheanine and give it a go. I want to do all I can to maintain the positive direction of this withdrawal, and certainly don't want too much adrenaline kicking around my system for much longer to cause long-term effects.

 

I am aware that the best way to reduce it is simply to "calm down". This of course causes one to worry purely as being prone to not being able to "calm down", one creates a viscous cycle of worrying about too much adrenaline, which in turn continues the supply... and so it continues....

[invalidusername]

Suntheanine 200mg x 60

Ashwaghandha KSM-66 500mg x 60

 

...both due tomorrow. Will start with dose of each first thing in the morning. Many others encourage a second dose half-way through the day, so might do this too. Not too sure - maybe start the first week just in the morning.

[fishinghat]

That is what I do with my meds. First week one capsule a day, second week 2 capsules a day, etc.

[invalidusername]

Yes - thought this would be best way forward. More doesn't always mean better with these things.

 

Case and point being when I entrusted the wife to make some kratom a few days back and she used the tablespoon measure instead of the teaspoon measure. Within half hour I was completely out for the count and couldn't keep my eyes open. Fortunately after a couple of hours it eased off and I was able to enjoy the relaxation rather than sleep through it.

[invalidusername]

The order is delayed by a day!! So no supplements yet.

 

Yesterday was not a good day. I was on my way to my first appointment, and was sat at traffic lights and praying - and mid-prayer I was hit with a wall of anxiety again - out of nowhere. This lasted for my entire appointment and continued when I went home. It eased after about an hour. Then I went for my next appointment, and fine for about 10 minutes, and then again - it hit me. These are now to the point of panic. I just have no control. There are no thoughts that trigger them, they just "happen".

 

I woke this morning and of course the thought is now there. How can I cope with my days when this panic can come out of nowhere. It has been a week since the anxiety set in like this. A day of seizure and a trip to the ER and continued adrenaline symptoms. 

 

I am in a state, and I really don't think that after 7 weeks (8 if you include the week of 5mg) of Lexapro is going to get any more supportive. But where to go from here?? Try an increase to 20mg?? Or could the Lexapro be contributing to the problem? I remember, Hat, you mentioned that trying 20mg and only that will tell... it'll get better or worse. 

 

I know I need to wait and give the ash/theanine a chance, but the anti-depressant situation I think needs to be addressed - even if it is going back to Citalopram, which I at least worked to an extent - but will it be strong enough to counteract the issues of Cym withdrawal??

[fishinghat]

This is a large enough dose for long enough to see some steady benefit from the Lexapro. Going to 20 may help a little but if 15 is not making a big dent in it then 20 probably won't help much.

I know I have said this before but I really wish you could get your hands on some clonidine. Oh well, wishing doesn't do any good.

[invalidusername]

I agree, and I have read in a number of places that when people have gone from 15 to 20, there has been no difference - and this is when they then get shifted to 30, which is, as you well know, not at all recommended.

 

So would you suggest that I maintain Lexapro with clonidine? Taper the Lexapro and rely more on the clonodine? Switch back to Citalopram and use clon as a bridge?

 

I might have to revoke my rule of no more pills if this is the way to go...

[fishinghat]

I would keep everything the same and try the clonidine first. It takes only about 1 hour to kick in. Use it for two or three days and you can easily tell if it is going to work for you. Then you can decide on the next step.

[invalidusername]

Right. That sounds like a plan. Obviously side effects will initially concern me, but if it is a case that I will know in such a short space of time, then it doesn't pose quite so much of a risk. It looks like it has quite a good write-up used as a withdrawal aid for opium, smoking, street drugs and the like. Just need to convince the doctor. 

[invalidusername]

Doctor won't prescribe Clonidine. Told me to speak to p-doc... you know, the one who confiscated my Cymbalta beads...

 

*sigh*

[fishinghat]

Really sucks. Anyway to order them on line?

[invalidusername]

No kidding. Its my brain dammit!!

 

Need a prescription to buy in the UK.

 

Can you really buy online in the US without prescription??

[fishinghat]

Not legally.

[invalidusername]

Both ash and theanine have just arrived! I will start in the morning as it is now 4pm over here. 

 

Also would like to report that I had a better day yesterday. It didn't start well, but I got on with it all the same and I did all work as scheduled, changed spark plugs and repaired some hosing on the car and did some light shopping. It felt good.

 

The down side is that I wake this morning to my unstoppable feelings of being trapped in this viscous cymbalta withdrawal cycle, which seems to shatter the feelings of yesterday. But, I have had a very tough last 7 days what with the iron, seizures, hospital and the like, so I need to remember that this will have impacted greatly and I need to give it time.... but when the time has already been so very long, it is so difficult to see an end.

 

We carry on as we can...