171 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

The biggest problems mentioned in the past is that there is a different number of beads from one manufacturer to another and the size of the beads vary in some brands. As long as you are going by weight these shouldn't be an issue. The contents of your new capsule will not weigh the same as your old one so you will have to weigh the contents of the new capsules and calculate how much to start with.

 

You mentioned that you are having issues with benzo withdrawal. I take it you are not doing water titration. I have come off benzos 4 times and water titration is the way to go. It is slow but can be done with no symptoms if done correctly.  Also, hydroxyzine is excellent for helping with benzo withdrawal. I also assume your dr us using blood pressure to control your benzo withdrawal.

[fishinghat]

You did well in preparing for your change over to Teva brand. I would expect some minor effects but they should be minimal. Just stay stabile on your Valium until you adapt to the Teva.
 
That weird felling on the benzo is because the liquid benzo is absorbed a little quicker. I have a feeling that you are probably taking your benzo 3 times per day. When I was first taught by my psychiatrist on water titration he said it was essential to do your benzo 4 times per day as your blood levels will stay more stabile. The PG/water method is Ok and can be very helpful. My water titration is a little different. If you are taking 2.5 mg then you grind up your 7.5 mg (a three day supply) and dissolve it in 600 mls of water. Take 50 ml every 6 hours. After three days when it is time to make the next batch you make it up the same way BUT when it is ready you remove 2m from the makeup and replace with 2 ml of water. The next batch you remove 4 ml of valium solution and replace with 4 ml of water, etc. When you start the water titration you can slowly increase the drop ( for example try a 3 ml drop with each batch and if no problems then go to 4 ml drops). Once you start feeling withdrawal effects then go back to a slightly slower drop rate and continue from there. If at any time you feel some effects coming on just pause for a few days and then go back to weaning again. I have successfully used this technique 3 times to come off benzos with little to no withdrawal BUT it can be slow and take a lot of time but I also have a life during my withdrawal.
 
One of the problems with the use of a 1/2 mg make up is you have to split the tablet in half which will yield AROUND 1/2 mg. When I did my first benzo wean I did a test and it ran about +/- 5% on a half tablet split.  That is when I talked to my shrink and he turned me on to the water titration. Just some things for you to think about.

" When I do cut the valium, should I start with a .1 ml cut and draw up 4.9 mls or should I go for 4.8 mls? I really need to get off this stuff and hate to drag it out, but I'm so sensitive to even the tiniest change. "
 
I would start with the 0.1 ml drop and see how you do. Stay at that rate for a few days and see how you do. If things get bad, pause until stable, and then do 0.1 ml drops every second day, and continue to evaluate and adjust as necessary until you get a smooth taper. As far as how long/ Well, it can not be rushed. Studies have shown that it takes the synapses in the nerves around to years to adjust to the absence of a benzo. Now each person is different but it will take a while in less you want to suffer. I am currently coming off 10 mg of lorazepam. A very high dose of the second worse benzo for withdrawal. I too am very sensitive. I have been dropping for 3 years, am 80% off but have had no symptoms. The extra time is worth it. Most people I know that were on 2 mg of valium took 2 years plus or minus to come off it comfortably. Time and patience.

"I have felt horrible during my whole valium taper. I'm worse now than ever with terrible mental symptoms and akathisia. I am in terror all the time and cannot socialize or be in groups. My behavior is very odd and friends and family have deserted me....I think they think I have a severe mental illness. So, I'm isolated. I live alone and have no spouse or children. I'm 65. "
 
The symptoms are typical for withdrawal. It can be devastating. I am afraid that you will need to choose to get off one drug at a time. I would suggest that you focus on the valium first. Cymbalta works on a different set of synapses as a benzo so thus will give those nerves time to adjust and settle down while you finish your benzo. Stay at the 48 mg of Cymbalta while you adjust your valium. Your life can get a lot better with a slower withdrawal and time. And by the way you are not alone on this we are here for you.

"Yes, my blood pressure went up a year ago for the first time ever and my doc put me on medication. I have tinnitus and hearing loss and also visual deterioration."
 
Blood pressure rises during the heavy stress of withdrawal. What bp med did he put you on/ I hope it was Clonidine as it is not only a good bp med but also treats both benzo and Cymbalta withdrawal symptoms. It is a commonly prescribed med for anxiety and withdrawal. As far as the use of hydroxyzine...there was a recent journal article about using hydroxyzine to treat withdrawal by using bp as a guideline. During withdrawal if your blood pressure systolic number (top number) consistently gets above 130 during stressful periods then it is tiem to take an extra hydroxyzine. If your systolic stays down in the 90s or low 100 during calmer periods it is time to resume weaning. This technique was very helpful to me when I first started my lorazepam withdrawal until I figured out the right wean rate. By the way tinnitus and visual issues are fairly common with Cymbalta withdrawal. I don't know if you had this issue before your withdrawal or not but something to consider.

"I have some hydroxyzine but use it sparingly as I don't want to take it so often that it loses its effectiveness. Sleep has become a problem. I am open to any suggestions you have or advice from your experience."

Hydroxyzine is not known to cause tolerance and I have been on it for 3 years steadily as a replacement for my benzo and have had no issues with it loosing its effectiveness. Hydroxyzine before bedtime is also an effective sleep aide. I have some guidance that is from my first therapist on how to get a better nights sleep and will post it shortly. Remember that most over the counter sleep aides are in compatible with hydroxyzine. The hydroxyzine will do you a better job anyway.

[fishinghat]

How to sleep better

http://www.cymbaltaw...elps#entry72205

[fishinghat]

Just so you know...

The half-life of valium is 20–100 hours (the older you are the longer the half-life, and 36–200 hours for the main active metabolite desmethyldiazepam.

As you can see the variability of the half-life fluctuates considerably but in any case you are correct. This does not require the multiple daily dosing in order to wean. My bad!!

Valium like many benzos is fat soluble and is only very poorly soluble in water. That is why when water titrating off the lorazepam the dr has me dissolve it in 600 ml. That is enough water to dissolve nearly all the tablets I use and of course I shake it well before use. Something benzo buddies taught me a long time ago is that you don't have to use alcohol or PG to dissolve the benzo. As I am sure you are aware that the alcohol ( a cns depressant) is a bad combo with benzos. I know many people use regular milk, not the low fat milk. I would do that but I can't drink regular milk. I have been told that the fat conten t in regular milk easily dissolves the benzos. Also PG can cause diarrhea which you don't need on top of everything else. lol   At those concentrations though I doubt if it would cause a problem.

[fishinghat]

Atorovastatin (aka Lipitor) is a statin used to control high serum lipid concentrations and is not FDA approved to treat blood pressure. Do you have high cholesterol or triglycerides?

 

Many drs use it for bp as an off label use. It has been shown to reduce bp by 2 to 20% depending on which research article you read.

[fishinghat]

I am sorry Gardenlady. I was not clear enough. Once off the benzo it does take two years for the synapses to recover BUT you are not severely ill during that time period. Usually around 1 or 2 months after finishing the benzo things begin to settle down and after 4 months you are feeling much better. At the end of a year your feelings are nearly back to normal although you can still be sensitive to stress and such. What I failed to mention to you, my bad, is that is the advantage of doing a water titration like we are. Although the method is a little different they are still similar in the fact that you have the option to go as slow as you like. It may take me 3 or 4 years to wean off my lorazepam with no significant withdrawal symptoms but the added advantage is that my nerves are slowly healing as I wean and by the time I am fully off the drug my system is nearly back to normal with few lingering symptoms. I would suggest that you stay at your current dose until you are feeling better and then begin tapering at a slower speed.
 
Barrelling through is a tough option if you are not taking something for the withdrawal symptoms. Many who have tried that have wound up with multiple ER visits due to how they feel and some wind up in detox centers (Usually a bad experience). Some have even had thoughts of suicide. Why suffer if you don't have to. Just my thought. Each of us has to decide what is best our situation.

"The thought of feeling like this for over 4 more years (2 yrs to taper and 2 to recover) is overwhelming."

If you go slow enough you don't "feel like this" and then you don't have this fear. All you need is patience.

You are really in a bad state right now and I well remember the paranoia and fear that comes with the various withdrawals I have been through. Your mind is just not rational and clear at this point. It will go away though and I will do anything I can to help.

[fishinghat]

I can identify with all of this except the connection to God. During my withdrawal my dr put me in isolation. No phone calls.no visitors. Away from as much stress as possible. Luckily my dear wife handles our friends and family for me as well as routine duties (paying bills, oil changes, etc.( without that I would not have survived. I actually felt closer to God. I had been through several life and death events in my life and God always pulled me out of them so I new He was there. I know He is always there. I just prayed for mercy and for him to hold me tight. Eventually we got through it. The isolation was a blessing for me and helped a lot. I am a loner by nature and can often spend days not being around people (except my wife of course). If you are an outgoing person you just have to realize that this is temporary and your life will return at some point. I would like to make one comment. On the Klonopin if you get reducing too fast and the symptoms get severe it can easily take 3 to 6 months for them to subside without further drops in dose.

 

As far as your siblings and friends...well if they truly love you they will be there for you. They will understand. If they turn away from you when you need them that is sad and for right now you are better off without them in your life until things get better. I know that many members have had their family members read sections of this forum so they can get a better feel of what they are going through. It has often helped. You might also have them come into the forum and talk to some of us that have been through this. Maybe we can help. That is if they really want to help you they will try.

 

I am glad the switch to Teva went well and now if we can just get you through the benzo issue.  Have you talked to your dr about using the hydroxyzine or clonidine for the benzo withdrawal. The hydroxyzine works especially well.

 

God bless and stay strong.

[fishinghat]

Connecting with Him is a matter of faith. Once you truly accept Him, with no reservations,  then He can begin to work within you to heal you, give you strength and other blessings. The bible says that tribulations are allowed in our lives to build a stronger character but also to prove we need God and to give him a chance to show his mercy. A leap of faith. He sacrificed His only son in order to prove His love for us. How much more proof does anyone need? You must do some deep consideration about why you are afraid to fully believe in Him. Are you afraid of giving up control of your life or possible losing some of the things in life that you enjoy but God may think it is a sin? There are many possibility. A good therapist or clergy might be able to help.

 

I might suggest watching some of Joyce Meier's and Joseph Princes sermons on the internet. Very practical and enlightening on how God works. Once you understand how he works in our lives it may be easier to fully believe.

 

In the USA there is an organization called Office on Ageing. It goes by county name in Tennessee. Services extend well beyond the elderly. Our office will supply caregivers (volunteer, no charge) for short term use if you are suffering emotionally or medically and are having a hard time taking proper care of yourself. They will do grocery shopping. Stop by a few hours a week to run errands, etc. A great service. They may be able to help to help take some of the pressure off. It is worth a phone call.

[fishinghat]

I believe it is called the Tennessee Commission on Aging and Disability . Each county has its own branch office. It should be listed by county name. For example if you live in Smith County the office would be called the Smith County Office of Aging. If you can't find it that way you can always call that main office and get info on how to contact the local office. If you wish I can contact them and see what services they offer. I would need your County name and your age. If you are not comfortable with.

You might check out there main home page...
https://www.agingcar...ncy-on-aging-tn
 
I fully agree with your psychologist. As long as you are going through withdrawals the doubts will always be there as these medicines effect the hippocampus and amygdala which are the centers for fear and uncertainty. From what little I have learned about you I believe you are saved. You believe in Him and try to follow his word. I think you are in better shape than you think.

 

God bless and be patient.

[gail]

Garden lady,

Your last post is touching. I do believe in God, that He exists. I'm the same age as you. How I prayed to really feel his presence. It happened, but not in the way I expected.

I have experienced one mystical experience in my life. It was incredible. I felt intense joy, detachment in a loving way, happiness in a great way. This lasted five minutes or 30 minutes.

Once, I was on a beach by myself, 9 years ago, around 7pm, l looked around and all the rocks had intense color like I have never seen. I wanted to pick them all. I was so joyous and smiling and I knew that this was God's way of saying that He was there.

A few events happened in my life and I knew firmly that it was God's doing. Mostly, my prayers are of gratitude and asking. You never know when He will respond to our prayers.

I understand that in the way you feel now, praying must be difficult. God knows that. Specially when you are all alone in this. I say, do what you can in this matter, and by the way, God understands your battles and of course you are saved! With love, Gail xxx

[fishinghat]

Side effects??  The major side effect is dry mouth. It has been widely shown that benzo withdrawal, as most withdrawals, raise bp. and clonidine has FDA approval for not only high blood pressure but panic attacks AND treating withdrawal from  many substances. What an idiot.

 

One of the common methods used by drs to monitor weaning of an AD is bp monitoring. If your bp stays at 120 or over you are weaning too fast. If it stays at 110 or less you can wean faster. This is based on several resting blood pressure values obviously not just one.

 

Some drs are still in the ice age.

[fishinghat]

I am currently coming off a 6 mg/day dose of Lorazepam (which an extremely high dose) and I am down to 1.85 mg/day. This has taken 3 1/2 years BUT as you know I taper extremely slow so there is no symptoms so bear that in mind. When I finish the last dose there will be no residual withdrawal. Most people take about 1 to 2 years and then another 1 to 3 months for all symptoms to fade after the last dose.

 

Just take your time and you will get there. Many others have done this you can too.

[fishinghat]

I too am sensitive to benzos. I have come off clonazepam and lorazepam 4 times and each took several years using water taper. I did not have any withdrawal symptoms after finishing ANY of the water titrations. Not only by my psychiatrist but also as a member of BB I was taught this very slow technique and have helped many others use it to successfully get off benzos with no symptoms and several on this site as well. The most frustrating thing is to go slow enough. This current titration of lorazepam is proceeding fine but will take me around 5 years. BUT during that time I will have no symptoms. Once you find what speed to withdraw at with no symptoms you just stay at that rate until done. If there is ever a sign of ANY symptom or you are going through a rough patch you just stabilize your dose until you feel like it is time to proceed. The biggest problem I have in helping others is they just don't have the patience to wait that long and give up and hurry it.   lol 

 

In your case you would need to stabilize your dose for 2 to 5 months in order to get over your current withdrawal symptoms before proceeding on at a much slower pace. You will live through these symptoms but they are hell. By the way I am dropping at the rate of 0.01 mg every 5 days. That is slow.

[gail]

Thank you Garden Lady,

Once again, your post really touched me. More than you can know.
They say that what you admire in a person, it means that you already have it inside you. Otherwise, you would not have recognized this. Xxxx

[fishinghat]

Gail is right. It is my pleasure to be able to help. With my health issues it is a way I can still help my fellow man. That is what life is all about. Helping others and this site has always been full of people like that.

 

Thanks again.

[fishinghat]

You are doing fine. The idea of pausing at 2 mg is a good one. Even though I am going slow I pause for a week every month or two just to give my body a chance to rest a little.