60 replies to this topic

[Tinker]

Hello lovely gang,
I have officially completed my bead counting and as of yesterday I'm now cymbalta free! Thank The Lord the side effects have been minor but now I feel I'm back to where I started, with mild depression and meloncholy moods. I have always suffered from this and hate it!
I really don't want to have to go on another antidepressant journey so am looking for natural supplements that I can take to relieve my depression.
Has anyone got any recommendations on some natural remedies? So far I take fish oil and have started st johns wort. I read somewhere that one of the vitamin Bs 6?12?) is good? Magnesium?
Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated. My apologies if this has been discussed in a previous post.

[thismoment]

Tinker

 

Good work. You started bead-counting about May 1, and have focussed on the task at hand; I congratulate you! "Mild depression and melancholy moods" makes you an artist! Maybe explore that. Melancholy is, artistically, grist for the mill; it's the swoon in your heart, colour, music, faces; it's that line from Lyin Eyes, "she thinks about a boy she knew in school".

 

Happiness relieves depression. Therefore the question is, how can I produce happiness? Many things make me laugh, but few things makes me happy. But for me, happiness is only related to behaviour that is my own.  Nobody has ever given me happiness.  I find that simply doing something I love to do, to the standard I honour comes pretty close.

 

I don't take supplements, but I know many people who do. Surely the things mom said are true-- eat a balanced diet, get plenty of exercise, take one walk outside every day, get a good night's sleep, and don't tolerate sexual frustration.

 

Take care.

[TryinginFL]

Tinker,

 

I am not an authority on supplements as I only take Magnesium, but if you go to the home page and click on "forums" you will see, down toward the bottom of the page and on the left, a  forum entitled Nutritional Support - you might like to check that out.  Many on this forum take supplements and will chime in to help you, I'm sure. 

 

I wish I could be of more help, but I never did get into the supplement thing - maybe I should have!  I am having a really hard time getting back to where I was before I went on that dreaded trip and am trying to just "stay in the present" and when I really concentrate I find this is the best I can do right now.

 

Congratulations on being "free" from the horrible poison!!  Yes, some symptoms occasionally turn up but life is good - and definitely bearable without that crap!   I am proud of you for making it - I knew you could!

 

Please continue to stay in touch and keep us posted -  you are still helping those who come after you and we want to know how you are doing as you improve.

 

 

Hugs,

Liz

[buntbean2]

I have only been Cymbalta free since August 8th.  The past 2 days have been pretty good for me.  Some anxiety but I was able to defuse it by getting busy.  My moods are all over the place.  Many good people on here have helped me to understand that our brains need time to heal, to re-wire.  Expect to be overwhelmed, anxious, sad, angry.  It's all NORMAL.  Give it time (weeks they're telling me).  I'm pretty good at disliking myself right now.  It seems everything I touch turns disastrous.  I like things organized, scheduled, controlled.  My life is anything but those things right now.  This is a tough road we're on, but we have to try and remember that just because we're technically 'off' the medication, our bodies need to figure out how to work without it.  I've taken flaxseed, wild salmon oil, magnesium, vitamin B complex for years now (not sure if it helps or not).  I just harvested some chamomile from my garden so I'm thinking I might try making some tea.  It's suppose to be calming and help with the sleeplessness.  So far the best thing I've found that helps is falling into a supportive friends arms and crying.  My husband has been great at helping me defuse my anger (when that mood rears its ugly head).  Stick close to those that give you strength and support.  A good prayer never hurts either.  God bless!

[Tinker]

Thanks for you responses.

TM wow thanks for pointing out that I started in May, I haven't really given much thought to how long it's taken. And too true, I'm very much the creative mind which I should really focus on more. Your comment about happiness realives depression really struck a cord and Is something I've been thinking about latley, I worry and dwel on things a lot, I wander if change of perspective is a cure for depression and may rewire the brain...? Exercise defenetly helps with the ol mood!

Liz, thanks I will have a look at the posts. thanks for the kind words, I'm certainly glad it's over! I am sorry to hear you are still suffering from the aftermath of cymbalta, I pray that this nightmare ends for you soon! If I give supplements a go I will let you know if it's worth trying.

BB2, Sounds like we are in similar states of minds. The self loathing is what I also tend to do which is hard to switch off sometimes. Weeks? Sigh. I didn't think about flaxseed or wild salmon so will check those out. Supportive people certainly helps. I don't really talk to anyone abkut my journey, I doubt they would either understand or not something they would want to listen to. If it wasn't for the lovely caring people on this forum, I would be suffering in silence.

[gail]

Tinker, there is a post made by Cymsik in the What are you feeling.

The post is about What I wish people knew about depression.

There is a link in the second post, it mentions quite a lot about
Supplements. Check it out. Good material in there that quite surprised me.

[fishinghat]

Some great words of wisdom in this thread about what cymbalta can do to your way of thinking and alter your view of yourself.

[thismoment]

bb2

 

"I'm pretty good at disliking myself right now.  It seems everything I touch turns disastrous.  I like things organized, scheduled, controlled."

 

Tinker

 

"The self loathing is what I also tend to do which is hard to switch off sometimes."

 

 

There is no guilt to be taken on by either of you nice people: you did not create this situation. You did not plan it; it just happened via a chain of events no one could  possibly unravel. It's not uncommon for us to feel guilt when we're in this situation-- struggling, and not functioning the way we would like. I don't know how to make all it go away, but I know it helps to know it's NOT your fault.

 

From the perspective of temporarily being inside the disaster of withdrawal, everything you touch will have that flavour. Organizing, scheduling, and controlling are cognitive endeavours, and right now it's a challenge; it will improve with time. Be sure to disregard those items beyond your control-- that in itself is a cognitive exercise, but you can ask, "Can I fix this, or is this spilled milk?"

 

You can't switch it off. You can't stop thought. You can create pauses within the mental verbal automaticity through meditation. But generally you can't stop it or alter it's content because you're not authoring your thoughts. That would require you think them before you think them. And if you actually could go inside and alter your thoughts, that would imply that there are two of you at work. There is only you.

 

Most of runaway thought is in time-travel. It lives in the disastrous past or in the uncertain (but probably disastrous too) future.

 

The best  you can do is create distractions to bring your thought into the present, and to brighten its content. Build something, make something, play with a Spirograph, clean out some drawers-- do something engage your brain in first gear-- make it think just a little. 

 

Take care.

[fishinghat]

ThisMoment is right. And with time those feelings will fade. Remember, it is not you it is the withdrawal doing this.

[brzghoff]

 

i went out and bought some L Trptophan. i poked around on the forums here, but didn't get a good idea of an efficacious dosing schedule. so i read up about it on the web from the myriad of sites of varying degrees of dubiousnous. i have determined that i should start slow, which is 500 mgs at night, basically because it doesn't come in increments less than that. its also kinda pricey. 

 

any thoughts? i haven't taken my first dose yet. my intent is to sleep better and perhaps tweak out some of the low level anxiety i have. my hope is that this is a temporary treatment, not a "for life"commitment.

 

as i was doing my research i came across some other info i never knew about. somehow i get the feeling i am the last one on earth not to know that all SSRIs/SNRIs except zoloft are made with varying levels of fluorine/fluoride - including the drug we love to hate. of course that's where fluoxetine gets it name. as for how good or bad fluoride is in our drugs, water and toothpaste is another topic altogether. 

 

i also learned that there are some interesting coincidences between the ban on L tryptophan and the debut of prozac on the market (like 4 days), and conversely the expiration of the prozac patent and L tryptophan once again being approved for sale in the US (same year). i do remember when L tryptophan was banned after batches made in japan were contaminated by bad bacteria, but allegedly eli lilly used that incident to pressure the feds to ban it all. conspiracy or coincidence? i dunno but it makes a great story  http://healthwyze.or...listic-way.html lots of folks think this web site is run by wack jobs. very possible, but it makes an interesting read. 

[tria]

Hi Tinker - Congrats on being Cymbalta free!  I posted some info on B Vitamins in the Nutritional Support forum. They have definitely helped me.  You can get a good B-50 or B-100 Complex but be sure to read the label.  Some complexes do not have all the B vitamins.  Twinlab makes a good B50 or B100 complex, but it can be hard to find in stores (at least around me - I take the B-50 Caps).  If you google Twinlab B-50 Caps, you can probably find a site that will list the ingredients. This would be a good list to compare with as it has all or almost all of the B's.  Even with a B Complex, you may want to add 500mcg or 1000mcg of B12, as this is good for mood, anxiety, etc.  A lot of B12 supplements are sublingual (dissolve under your tongue).  I used to take tablets but switched to the sublingual and I think it works betters.  A good brand is Natural Factors B12 1000mcg.  This brand also contains methylcobalamin, which is supposedly the more readily absorbed form of B12. 

 

I've also started seeing an ND (Doctor of Naturopathy). She started me on 50mg of 5-HTP which should be ok for you since you are off the Cymbalta.  If you are still on Cymbalta, DO NOT take this without a doctor's (or qualified health professional's) instructions.  Since I am at a very low Cymbalta dose (approx 8 or 9 mg), she felt it would be safe and I do think it has helped with my anxiety and with stabilizing my mood (less crying, less "on and off" depression).

 

My ND also recommended Magnesium, although I haven't started that yet as I've always had stomach issues with magnesium in the past. She recommended Calm Natural Vitality Magnesium supplement.  This is a powder so I can control the dose more easily

 

As with most supplements, they can take several weeks or sometimes longer to work so don't give up on something right away if you are tolerating it well otherwise.  Also, just an fyi - good vitamin/supplement web site is http://www.thdv.com - Total Health Discount Vitamins.  They have a huge selection and great prices.  Good luck, hope you find something that helps!!

[Tinker]

Thank you all for your input! Wow, i certainly need to do my research in the supplement area. I have never heard of progesterone mentioned as a supplement to be weary of in cymsicks "What I wish people knew about depression" post, or L tryptophan as mentioned by brgzoff or 5-htp although I have seen that term pop up regularly on this forum. Are these all available in health food shops?
Tria, thanks I will check out the website. I am keen to try both the vitamin b12 and magnesium

TM unfortunately I don't think my depressive thoughts are due to the cymbalta as I had these same depressive thoughts all my life. It's funny, I was reading a site yesterday about "how you can change your brain to create lasting happiness" and talks about taking the time to appreciate gratitude to change the neuron connections in the brain. I do wonder if that is possible...hmmm sounds great in therory atleast

[fishinghat]

I feel like it is time to repeat the "teaspoon/teacup rule". (I didn't name this by the way.)  Many of the supplements have had no testing or very little. Now that doesn't mean they won't work but in order to help avoid a bad reaction one should follow this simple rule. First dose should be about 1/4 of the recommended dose for a couple days. Then 1/2 the recommended dose for a few more days and then go to the full dose. This way if you experience any side effects at a lower dose and it will be less traumatic and eaier to recover.

[gail]

FH, the problem with the recommended dosage is that it varies. Depending on the info you get from the bottle, depending on which web site you visit.

Example, tryptophan, they recommend from 1500 to 8000 a day on web sites. On a empty stomach.
On my bottle they say 220mg three times daily with a meal.

In Canada, we have only the 220mg.

Started it 6 days ago, never saw on any web sites about a 220mg being recommended.

It is trial and error.

No one says gives the same info. That is maddening, and I agree with you as to start lower than mentioned, and build up.

But again, would be nice if the recommended dosage would be the same everywhere we seek for information!

[brzghoff]

 

i agree with FH. slow start at or below minimum dosage. i took my first l tryptophan last night. did minimum dosage, 500 mg, after some research. i am not overly sensitive to drugs so felt confident in my decision. per my research, many start at 1000 mg (1 gram) and i've noticed that some "studies" suggest working upward of 8 to 12 grams which i think is absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous so i would never ever recommend anything near that at any point not only do i think its overkills, but that is a lot of $$$. . 

 

my experience after one night: totally a great replacement for benedryl. i was taking 50 mg of that every night. i wasn't expecting such an immediate reaction to the l tryptophan. i figured i'd have to take it for at least a couple days before noticing anything. i started feeling calmer within the hour and went to bed soon after. i still laid awake for awhile but was comfortable. dozed off about 45 min later, but then hubby called (out with the guys) and woke me up :-( i forgave him. i went back to sleep in another 30. slept all the way through. a little drowsy upon waking but no prob getting up. feel calmer and way better overall today regarding anxiety, irritability, etc. maybe its psychological/placebo effect, dunno. doubt it. i've taken kava kava for anxiety, and it works very well, within 20  minutes. for me it doesn't make me sleepy so i've been able to take that as needed. but i won't take it with the l tryptophan. i've researched and found no contraindications with my only other med - lamictal. as others have said, don't take l trptophan (or 5 http or kava kava) or other anti-ds concurrently and always check for contraindications with any other drug/supplement, otc or otherwise.

 

i've checked for typos, but i upgraded my mac's op system - to mountain lion - and the auto correct is terrible. i've gotta turn it off. 

[tria]

Tinker - Good luck with the B12 and magnesium, hope it helps you!  If you don't notice any improvement with the B12, try taking it with a B Complex as it may work better when taken with other B vitamins.  But no harm in trying just the B12 first, it works fine for some people on its own.  Also, about the web site (http://www.thdv.com) - they have so many brands, it can be overwhelming.  These are some of the brands I use and some that were recommended by my ND - Twinlab, Nature's Way, Natural Factors, Country Life, Solgar, Solaray, Natrol.  These seem to be reasonably priced yet good quality, it may help narrow down your searching.

 

FH - Definitely good advice to repeat!  You can buy the lowest dose of a supplement and increase it if you need to.  I'm all for taking the lowest possible dose that will help, be it supplements or meds.

 

Gail - I agree with you on the dosing thing.  I have mitochondrial myopathy for which there is no treatment, other than supplements that may help. So far, my docs have pretty much left it up to me to research the vitamins and supplements, and conflicting info is all over the place.  Here is one book that I've had forever and use a lot.  It has info on most of the more common vitamins and supplements - The Healing Power of Vitamins, Minerals, and Herbs by Reader's Digest.  I don't think it's in print anymore, but you may be able to find used copies online.  Also, the web site I mentioned above has tons of brands and I've found low dosages of vitamins there that you never see in stores.

[brzghoff]

 

L Tryptophan update:

 

Night # 2: a complete 180° turn

 

I took the second dose of 500 mg, around 9:45pm. about 30 minutes later i started feeling a little "amped up" and some generalized anxiety. i was watching tv. i went to bed at 12:30am and laid awake for at least an hour. i was okay, anxiety went away. this morning i got up at 8 am. i've had a short temper and have been very irritable. my anxiety is kicking in again and i am close to tears. i don't get it. i haven't felt this way for several weeks. i've had mild manageable anxiety but this feels different. more confusion mixed in - not thinking straight. classic dysphoria.

 

i don't know if this is typical when starting up. i don't know if this means i should kick it up a notch or kick it down a notch or stop it altogether. the feeling is not unlike starting a new anti-depressant.

 

this is frustrating and disappointing. i wanted to use it for sleep more than anything. 

[thismoment]

brzghoff

 

Sorry to hear about your rising anxiety. I would get anxious too if I noticed something strange happening to my brain after ingesting something new.

 

Here's the thing for me: Regarding drugs (supplements and traditional remedies included), I'm of the Once-Burned-Twice-Shy school, and just the action of putting something unknown into my body spooks me-- and therefore it would likely spike anxiety. After a while I would start to imagine that it's doing something to me, to my brain. I'd wonder, am I imagining this? It wouldn't be a beneficial exercise for me.

 

Probably most supplements are harmless-- there is no way to know. However, if one is a believer then certainly there is benefit; but that's a relationship that naturally doesn't sit well with me, and it's something I'm not willing to explore. I stay away from it all.

 

I've arrived at the point where-- if there is no proven reason (blood tests, body scans, or other physical symptoms) for ingesting any drug or supplement-- I won't take it. That goes for vitamin C, B, magnesium, iron, tryptophan-- anything. Therefore I take nothing at all.

[gail]

Brzghoff, I have also started on it seven days ago for anxiety and depression.

In my opinion, I do not think that the tryptophan caused this.

I have researched it so many times before putting one in my mouth. I am a very scary one when
Trying new supplements.

I take it three times a day, about five hundred mg.
Yesterday was a very bad day with high anxiety, wondering just like you what to do.

Continued on the same dosage and am fine today.

I have not seen anywhere that it could cause anxiety.

So yesterday was not tryptophan related, speaking for myself here.

If it were tyrosine, that would be a different matter.

Just up to you to decide to continue or stop. I would give it a chance, and try it during the day with fruit juice. Twice a day to start and see what happens.

[brzghoff]

 

thanks this moment and gail,

 

i prefer not relying on anything for the long term, but have benefited from short term use with various drugs, OTC and otherwise, mostly just ibuprofen. the only thing i take regularly is lamictal and fish oil. i was able to stop taking my high BP med for awhile after quitting the C and losing over 20 pounds. however, my BP recently kicked up again and am back on a very low dose. that may be permanent, we'll see.  

 

i did some research and found that the majority of tryptophan users get relief, however a small number of people do experience heart palpitations and an uptick in anxiety when using tryptophan. those negative symptoms are just like what i would experience when first going on an anti-d, ramping up the med or reducing the dosage. i'm thinking that is what is happening. still not sure if i'll give it another go or not. i too would prefer using cognitive strategies. however, proper sleep is essential in maintaining good mental health. i never had a problem, ever, until weaning off and then stopping taking the C. 

 

the reason i think the hyper feeling and anxiety are related to the tryptophan is because the side effects kicked in out of nowhere just 30 minutes after taking it. i wasn't expecting it at all. just the opposite is true based upon my favorable experience from the night before. 

[FiveNotions]

please ladies, start low ... and slowly increase ...keep notes ... and check how you feel at each level, for each of 3- 4 days, even a week ... the doses "recommended " on some of the bottles and by some of the sales people in the stores are off the charts too high ...

Brzghoff and Gail ... too high a dose of tryptophan can cause serotonin syndrome ... Gail, 500 mg. 3 x a day strikes me as huge ... and brzghoff, I also think 1 gram is waaay too much to be taking for sleep ... or did I misunderstand what you meant for how you're dosing? Please be careful ...

For example, early this spring, Wagtail got herself into big trouble with tyrosine ... she thought it would help her anxiety ... but it's a dopamine booster ... and so it boosted her anxiety ... she didn't research it, and went out and bought the powder in a can/jar ... and dosed herself according to what it said on the jar ... huge levels, that the wacko power lifters and body buildings dose themselves on ... she was taking teaspoon fulls of it ... something like 3 grams 3 x 3 day ... 9 grams total ... and she got sick ... very sick ...

As with all drugs/meds, we each are different with respect to the use of these aminos, and in what amounts ... aminos are powerful, and can be dangerous if not used properly and carefully ... and used with a solid understanding of what they do ... each one works differently ... before I tried any of them I spent hours researching and reading ...

Please everyone, just be extremely cautious ...

[brzghoff]

 

i didn't take any last night, i was miserable - only slept about 4 hours. lack of sleep that aggravates the anxiety, which is so disruptive to living in general! simple enjoyment takes effort. i have no energy to do anything. sleep issues have never, ever been problem for me until i weaned off cymbalta. 

 

as for the trypto - i only took 500 mg within any 24 hr period. i've seen recommendations of a minimum of 1 gram but i didn't take that much. i took one 500 mg cap on monday night - which worked great and one on tuesday night which did not. i can't imagine serotonin syndrome on that amount - especially given my experience with high powered SSRI/SSNRI drugs. i do not take any other drugs that work on serotonin, lamictal is a mood stabilizer. at one point in time i was on 120 mg of the C concurrent with lamictal. no problems. trypto is not available at smaller doses. maybe i'll dig up some caps to use to split it into, not sure if thats the route i want to go anymore. 

[Amysgarden]

Ok... Just got home from work, stopped off and bought a bunch of stuff... 5htp, chelated magnesium, B-12. Tired of waking up suicidal nearly every morning. I'm on the verge of just going back on the poison, so I hope some of this stuff makes a difference. I can't live this way. Feel like I'm fighting for my life.

[FiveNotions]

Whoa on the 5-htp, AmysG ... powerful stuff, not to be taken without lots of careful research and reading ... we've discussed it on the forum a lot... I'll find the links and post them here for you...

A few questions... why did you buy 5-htp? someone recommend it, or something we said here? What are you hoping it will do for you/help you with? What brand and dose amount did you get? Capsules or loose powder?

Here are some of our discussions....

https://www.cymbalta...971-about-5-htp

https://www.cymbalta...cid-supplements
 
https://www.cymbalta...-what/?hl=amino

I can't find the thread I really want ... in it ThisMoment makes a very good argument for using Tryptophan, not 5-HTP, as a serotonin booster ...

TM, can you find that thread for AmysG and post the link here?

Edited by FiveNotions, 15 September 2014 - 07:50 PM.

[FiveNotions]

More info on 5-HTP

5-HTP
http://wholehealthmd...C31AB762&tier=2

http://wholehealthmd...DF754BA1B7B2B4C

[Amysgarden]

Cannot find tryptophan in the store. I got tablets, Nature's Way, and though they are enteric coated, I could cut them. 50 mg. I have no intention of taking high doses. 1/2 -1 a day to start. A friend of mine actually recommended it to me years ago when I was going off Xanax, but I was on Cymbalta then, so I did not take it. I am aware of the risks and the possible side effects, and also why I did not take it earlier, for concerns of how much of the Cymbalta remained in my system early on.

[Amysgarden]

So I took 50mg last night before bed. Actually slept for most of 7 hours and woke up feeling a lot more normal than I have in weeks. I'll see how it goes. Need to be functional on some level. Even the placebo effect would be fine with me.

[FiveNotions]

Hi Amy, I'm cross-posting this from a response I made to you over in TM's thread about "are you thinking of going back on Cymbalta" ... it needs to be here so everyone can read it, in context of your first 5-HTP post ...
 
----------------------
It's clear that you've read up on the stuff, are knowledgeable, and are in a position to give it a try. I'm also relieved to see that you're starting with very small doses.

I apologize if I came down too hard on you about it ... it's just that we've had a member who rushed off to try these aminos (in that instance it was tyrosine) without reading up on them, and have made herself damn sick as a result. When that happened, I felt that it was my fault, because I had recently posted about the good results I was having with that amino.

They are potent substances, especially the 5-HTP... because it, unlike the other aminos, it does cross the blood-brain barrier. It hits the brain directly, and too much of it makes for a very bad result. This is why TM recommends against using it, and suggests the tryptophan instead. It's just extremely potent, and thus risky for abuse, because it crosses the BBB.

I'm also happy to hear that you had a positive response to your first dose last night. I've used it, and also had very good results. Give it a few days at just the level you're at now. Then, you can also try adding a dose in the morning.

The interesting thing about both 5-HTP and tryptophan is that the serotonin works differently in the brain, depending on whether it's taken during night hours or daylight hours. During the night, when it's dark, it's processed into melatonin, which makes us sleepy. During the daytime, it works primarily as serotonin, which acts on anxiety, etc.

The fact that you had a hard time finding tryptophan is interesting. Others here have commented likewise, and that is also my experience. It's also more expensive than the 5-HTP. I had to order it online.

[Amysgarden]

No worries, FN! I've read of some of the instances of people rushing in to try new things. But I've been on some form of poison since the mid 90s, so I'm never one to rush without doing a lot of research. I plan to give it most of a week, at least, before I try adding a dose in the morning. Of course, if I'm stable, I probably will stay right here at the lowest level. Stable is my goal.

[TryinginFL]

Wanted to post this regarding Magnesium...

 

Anxiety is WAAAAY down since stopping the magnesium and it's only been about 10 days!  Trade off, however - now experiencing more pain ...

.

There truly is no end to the discontinuation - so this is it as I see it.

 

I know it works well for some and sure was helping the arthritis pain but obviously isn't for me.  Exception, again

 

Just an FYI