123 replies to this topic

[equuswoman]

TM, I am blessed with two fine physicians, my psych and PCP. I am going to see them both in the next few weeks. The problem is the new research that has well illustrated the damaged caused by ssri has not left the medical world with a resolution. As you well know ThisMoment, nerves do not heal fast, in fact slowly if at all. It is interesting to note that this research on the damage to our brain was started by people writing and complaining to the FDA. Several hundred who took the medicine for a few months for neuropathic pain, arthritis, back pain, etc and had NO history of ANY pyschiatric problems were left with debilitating pyschological issues when the medicine did not control the pain and the ssri was stopped.  There has now been 5 research papers that have documented this damage but leaves us with the question...How do you heal a damaged nerve?

& this be "me" TheEquusWoman who was prescribed this poison for chronic pain of my lower back due to osteoarthritis....the ol' wear and tear arthritis. Wish I could have been in the 80% that could quite this s*** cold turkey and have NO w/d symptoms. Ah but apparently I fell in the 20% group who have been to hell and back. My poor brain. It makes me so sad to know how it's been damaged and may possibly 'never' repair itself to it's original state Oh well I will just have to take what's left of it and carry on the best that I can. What else can I do?

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat. .This is great news...You didn't have any fear consciously or unconsciously during the process..One more question, we're you fearful of cymbalta while on it? Consciously or unconsciously? ..I'm trying to find a time line of heightened anxiety (not counting the time prior to cymbalta, i already know where you stood at that time..) What I do know is your heightened state prior to cymbalta, I do know cymbalta takes away emotions...I'm know you start to feel emotions once off cymbalta..I'm now wondering if when your emotionsreturned and your hightened anxiety returned, how soon aafter did you feel the fear?

[fishinghat]

Actually Carleeta I was one of the lucky ones. My emotions on Cymbalta were nearly normal. It did a great job for me until the pssd hit. I would occasionally get aggitated if I was too active or around a lot of excitement (like crowds) but that is all.I would say I was 90%. The only sensations that picked up after cymbalta was taste and smell. They were heightened for a couple weeks. I went through the usual nausea and mood swings for about 4 weeks but by week 8 all of that was done and that is when the fear hit like a freight train. So post cymbalta, few weeks of normal hell (lol) and as the withdrawal symptoms disappeared the fear hit big time.

 

Not really fearful of cymbalta while on it but I watched for the serious side effects very closely, taking liver function tests, testosterone tests, etc.

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat. .ok thank you..lol lol...I feel like a drill Sargeant. .lol lol.....The fear hit out of the blue..So you stopped because of pssd, which tells me this was a major concern on your mind..and rightfully so.

Yes your withdrawl symptoms were very tolerable. .Thank God..
On another take, boom eight weeks later the 'fear' hit..Out of the blue..

After answering my drill like questions..lol lol...You just can't figure out what caused the fear. .I see why you feel it could be cymbalta related and hopeful it isn't. ..You are doing a great job researching as much as you can..

My opinion on this is...From prior cymbalta all indicators you mentioned and why you were put on cymbalta, leads me to think you would have suffered from this 'fear' whether or not you took cymbalta..I'm hoping this to be the case..I going in this direction because I feel cymbalta was covering up your anxiety and it wasn't out of the CNS until 8 weeks out..Once some experience a 'fear' more than once they start to fear the 'fear' and it continues. .that's just my opinion..Then again this is my field..lol lol.. (needing assistance in my
own agoraphobia. .lol lol..That's how it goes..lol lol)

I so like your cocktail. ..When do you plan to start it?...I'm all for you doing what you have to do in order to enjoy your life..That's what life
is about...Finding what keeps you enjoying your life..







In the

[fishinghat]

Good Morning Drill Sergeant!!  lol Your hypothesis is a logical one. It is possible either way. I go to see my pcp next week and I will get his opinion on what to do. Then I see my pdoc the second week of April and will make a decision then. We will see what happens.

[fishinghat]

A lot of information.

 

I went to my favorite health food and supplement store. I explained my difficulty with veggies and they recommended a product called “Perfect Food Raw” by Garden of Love. It recommends 8 capsules a day but you know me I will start with 1/day. She also suggested V8 Fusion. DUH    I use to drink that all the time. So on the way home I picked up a couple bottles.

 

I visited my psychologist

 

I explained to her how I was doing and then mentioned these recent research articles on ssri/snri damaging the brain. She surprised me by saying that her and many other psychologist had often suspected that as the symptoms for ssri withdrawal indicated an affect by the amygdala and hippocampus. I said it really didn’t matter to me because I can’t know if I have the damage or not but I still need to deal with the symptoms. She said she could determine if the fear was due to damage or not. I was shocked. She basically asked me 5 questions;

 

Is the fear non-specific, in other words you don’t know what you are afraid of like dogs or spiders, etc?

Is the fear fairly uniform in intensity and constant?

Is the fear triggered by specific events?

Can you perform a normal duty with no significant change in the level of fear?

Did the fear start at a specific time, did not take months for it to develop?

 

I answered yes to all the questions except number 3. She said that it was definitely organic anxiety (caused by damage). WOW Then she dropped a bombshell. She said that this will not respond to regular therapy. The nerves in those areas of the brain takes decades to heal.  She then said find what medicines work best on your symptoms and stick with them. I was shocked. This lady for years has helped me get off meds. NOT NOW!! She also said that the reason for the variations in the intensity of the symptoms we feel with cymbalta withdrawal is normally due to age. These areas of the brain deteriorate with age and just don’t have the capacity to deal with the damage or stress like a younger person.

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat. .Wow..Amazing! After all these years of therapy She just Now informs you of what she and others wondered about..You've been receiving therapy for years, she helped you come off meds, asks you some questions, and tells you therapy won't help your condition..In other words she is telling you to discontinue therapy with her and stay with the psychiatrist so he can prescribe what works best for you..

Will she give this to you in writing? So you could have a lawsuit!

If she is correct, and this is the case, you were ready for this possibility. Although, do you believe her? I'm all for second opinions...

[FiveNotions]

OMG Fishinghat....I read this and got really and truly p*ssed off.....why didn't she tell you all this before? This is all wonderful info, esp. the part about the relationship between age and withdrawal symptoms....well, not wonderful, but at least it explains things....and takes away some of that uncertainty Carleeta talked about in an earlier post in this thread....

Are you feeling angry, FH?

[fishinghat]

Carleeta - Yes, she changed her diagnosis to organic anxiety due to possible pharmaceutical damage to the brain. She forward that to my psychiatrist. I bet that will blow his mind. lol  These tests that they give to determine if the psychological condition is acquired or organic have been around for a long time. She says they are most often use after a traumatic event to determine for the court if the condition was developed as a result of life experiences or the result of trauma (say motor cycle crash). This helps the court decide responsibility for the pysch condition.

[fishinghat]

She said that her and many psychologists had often that that these extreme long term cases of withdrawal was actually due to drug induced damage. I had taken several of the articles with me and I thought she was going to freak out. You would of thought it was the missing link. lol  She says with that information backing her up she can now diagnose these type of conditions correctly. After looking at the pictures she also said this is nearly the same type of damage seen in the amygdala and hippocampus from crack, opium derivatives like heroin and morphine.

 

You know FN. I am not really angry. I am just sort of stunned. I expected it but still....for a medicine to do that type of damage.

[FiveNotions]

Yeah, under the anger I'm stunned too....because this applies to many of us here....oh the irony....we get the damage of opium, heroin, morphine...but none of the fun that those drugs give.....and all because we wanted to get healthy again and we believed our docs, who it turns out didn't have a clue....

[fishinghat]

Exactly

[FiveNotions]

Well, since my brain is already damaged...maybe I should just go ahead and indulge in the recreational opioids ..... Just joking...I think...

[fishinghat]

I would normally laugh at that but my sense of humour is a little dented tonight!! Ugggg

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat. ..I hate to say this, although it's good to know what is really going on with you, and I'm certain, many others..She is sticking by you now and forwarded her diagnosis of organic anxiety over to your psychiatrist. This is good news..You can prove how long you've been on Cymbalta too...Your getting all your own documents in order..This news is good in the way you now know what you have, and second, you will not have to worry about what meds you can get rid of because you'll know what meds work and you can stay on them..

Although, I was hoping you could have someday been off all meds..It's ok though.You definitely need these meds to go on..
This is certainly a break through for you...

All the darn damage this drug caused...Wow

[Carleeta]

Oh Fishinghat. .I just thought of something. ..Your psychiatrist may not be too happy about this, especially if he's the one who prescribed Cymbalta in the first place..omg..

I know this is difficult for you to wrap your head around right now...I feel bad for you..I know no words I can say right now will ease your feeling..Although I can say I'm definitely here for you and will say prayers for you to stay happy and out of fear!

[fishinghat]

Carleeta, you don't know how much I appreciated your post. It  took me out of my funk and helped me put it in perspective. Thank you so much for the help. You and FiveNotions have really done such an outstanding job during this time helping me see clearly and providing such good technical support and direction. It has really helped. Thank you both so much.

[fishinghat]

Oh Fishinghat. .I just thought of something. ..Your psychiatrist may not be too happy about this, especially if he's the one who prescribed Cymbalta in the first place..omg..

I know this is difficult for you to wrap your head around right now...I feel bad for you..I know no words I can say right now will ease your feeling..Although I can say I'm definitely here for you and will say prayers for you to stay happy and out of fear!

No, he didn't proscribe it. He is a young pup just out of med school but from what he saw with cymbalta during residency he considers it a very wicked drug. And yes your word do help. Like your last post. It helped me realize I was feeling sorry for myself and the future can be managed. Thank you

[FiveNotions]

Well FH, you may have solid grounds for a personal injury case developing out of all this.... Keep good notes and all records (ha, like I'm sure you already are!) ..... If it comes to that, count me in for any help I can offer! Just bear in mind, I'll be using my aging, cymbalta-damaged brain.....and possibly toasted on some good opioids .... :-D

[fishinghat]

I have had my experience with courts. My view of them is lower than pharmaceutical companies. At 62 I need to take what is left of my "new me" and spend it with my wife and focus on happy.Any law suit, whether from me or not, would take 10? 15? maybe even 30 years. Insurance and pharmacos are THE best at eating up time. Because that time allows them to sell more product and make more profits. But you already know all that. If I was 30 or 40...heck yes. But some one else will have to carry this ball.

[FiveNotions]

I agree FH.....I've seen lawsuits ruin lives.....even the "winning ones" ..... Were you to ever seriously consider a lawsuit, I'd be first in line to tell you all the downsides.... Even if you were much younger, the legal system is so busted that it isn't worth coming into contact with it....the sad thing is that the drug companies know that this is a huge deterrent to people taking legal action against them.... and they act with even more impunity because of it....any large corporation factors the risk/possible costs of litigation into their business model....one of my former firms represented big pharma...individual companies and the pharma mfg association itself.... I saw it, on paper, as a budget line item...

There is a special place in Hell for these people.....

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat. ..Great outlook..Make your life comfortable and enjoy it. .All we have is time so take advantage of being comfortable and happy with your wife...No sense worrying your life away..This wastes so much energy and time, and for what? Days go by and you didn't enjoy it...

I agree with omitting law suits...too long..too frustrating..too many precious days lost...

Enjoy my dear friend. .Enjoy!

[FiveNotions]

As always, Carleeta, you've hit the nail on the head....bless you!

[Carleeta]

FiveNotions. .TY...It's truly just a reality check..No one knows what's going to happen tomorrow or a month from tomorrow...Therefore since we don't have a crystal ball we need to be optimistic and enjoy!

[fishinghat]

I agree FH.....I've seen lawsuits ruin lives.....even the "winning ones" ..... Were you to ever seriously consider a lawsuit, I'd be first in line to tell you all the downsides.... Even if you were much younger, the legal system is so busted that it isn't worth coming into contact with it....the sad thing is that the drug companies know that this is a huge deterrent to people taking legal action against them.... and they act with even more impunity because of it....any large corporation factors the risk/possible costs of litigation into their business model....one of my former firms represented big pharma...individual companies and the pharma mfg association itself.... I saw it, on paper, as a budget line item...

There is a special place in Hell for these people.....

 

Never have truer words been said my friend.

[clearglass]

It took a while but I'm finally caught up on this topic. I hope you feel better soon fishinghat.

 

Like most here, I'm not a Dr. and can only share my experience.  I did go through panic attacks w/o pills, but that was many years ago.  Abuse, stress, anxiety, depression, and for the most part, unknown anger, has put me where I am today. I want my brain back and I believe knowing and embracing the anger is helping. (I do not hurt anyone or myself, so don't call the cops.  I maintain my Tasmanian Devil moments for inside my home ).

 

I'm 5'1' and weigh 207 pounds. I take 1mg of clonazepam a day (break up the dose as needed), along with my bp med, multi-vitamin, omega 3, a probiotic, and a low dose aspirin. I only eat red meat once a week and veggies everyday. I'm also increasing my activity, gradually. I start aqua aerobics in a few weeks.

 

For what it's worth, my thought is, what if you start with some of your cocktail and add more as needed?  I do know people who just take clonazepam and are doing well.  I’m not trying to push a benzo, because I was taken off cold turkey and almost admitted myself into a mental facility.  I was put back on, stabilized, and it’s really keeping me calm. With the Cymbalta leaving my body, the clonazepam feels a lot stronger than before.

 

 

clearglass

 

P.S I am also little p*ss#d at your therapist and like Carleeta said, lawsuits are so time comsuming. You have to work on yourself now (I believe someone here told me the same thing).

[fishinghat]

ThanksClearglass. One reason that the clonazepam is on the list is that I have taken it before with success. But because it is addictive and that more is needed with time I have put it on the bottom of the list. lol Right now I am at about 70% of normal I would say, so I am not looking at adding all of these just 1 is possible to put me over the hump.

 

Thanks for your well wishes and I wish the best for you as well. God Bless

[FiveNotions]

Clearglass, this is off topic for this thread, but I see that you're starting water aerobics soon...me too! I just dread being seen in a swimsuit, but I'm determined to do this.....Let's encourage each other!

[TryinginFL]

Clearglass and FN....I did this last yr and am only waiting for the water to get warm enough to start up again!  I will be happy to support you both as I enjoyed it tremendously

 

Dr. told me it was the best thing for arthritis and FM but it really works - just easier on the old body!  If I can put my saggy butt in a bathing suit, so can you!   Actually, most of the class are older people - even our instructors are in 50's and 60's

 

We can all have fun together!

 

Hugs and Prayers and hope you have a good day,

Liz 

[TryinginFL]

Fishinghat....all of my best wishes for you!  I do not understand all of the medical jargon here but have been following your posts with those that have the knowledge and want you to know that you are in my prayers and I hope that all is better soon.

 

I agree, none of us know how all will turn out so we do the best we can. I just wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts.

 

God Bless,

Liz