123 replies to this topic

[Carleeta]

What concerns me, Fishinghat, is picamilon is made from Niacin which is Vitamin B 3...For some reason I thought I read somewhere you were either allergic, or have a problem with the Vitamin B's..Wasn't able to find that post...Hopefully, it was someone else who has the problem...

[fishinghat]

I can't get my response to post so I am going to try another approach Carleeta.  $%#&& Computers

 

Yes you are right. My drs have tried to put me on B complexes 3 times and all three times it is a no go. I also have high triglycerides (genetic) and one of hte treatments for that is a drug called Niaspan, which is concentrated niacin. Other than a little flushing (in the face that is, lol) I tolerated it well. Unluckily it didn't help the triglycerides. So I know that this level of Niacin would probably be OK. I do want to comment that was a good catch Carleeta. Thanks so much for keeping your eyes open and helping out.

 

Best Wishes on your battle with the demon drug.

 

Ah Ha It worked.

[FiveNotions]

FH, how do you distinguish between the fear and a panic attack? How is what you experience different? Im not sure I can do that, based on my own experiences ..for example, during my "living in a closet phase" I described what I was feeling as a panic attack...but constant and unrelenting and lasting for hours on end....I didn't describe it with the word "fear"..... I do, however, describe what I experience with respect to heights as "fear"..... But as I examine these two things now, from memory....the panic and the fear are the same....

I don't know if this makes any sense....sorry....

Another thought....you lived on adrenaline for years.....any chance there's something amiss now with the glands....cld you still be producing too much adrenaline, and thus the fear?

Also, adrenaline can affect IBS and high blood pressure.....

Could the reason that the cymbalta alone took care of the fear be that it's an ssNri, and enhances norepinephrine (noradrenalin), while the Zoloft is just an ssri, thus requiring you to augment it with other meds such as lorazepam, which reduces adrenaline?

Edited by FiveNotions, 17 March 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[FiveNotions]

Here's an interesting resource...the Society of Biological Psychiatry.... http://www.sobp.org/...ex.cfm?pageid=1

The SOBP journal is directly searchable from their site....http://journals.else...periodicals/bps

[fishinghat]

What concerns me, Fishinghat, is picamilon is made from Niacin which is Vitamin B 3...For some reason I thought I read somewhere you were either allergic, or have a problem with the Vitamin B's..Wasn't able to find that post...Hopefully, it was someone else who has the problem...

Well I have to apologize to you Carleeta. You turned out to be 100% correct. In our hospital system here we have 24/7 access to or medical records. I stopped taking the Niaspan due to diarhea, nausea and vomitting. Thanks so much for reminding me of that and waking me up. I am going to check but I think both of them are made with niacin. Thanks again Carleeta.

[fishinghat]

FN, it does make sense. I have had my share of panic attacks also, some lasting several hours. This fear is a strong feeling of imminent death. Imagine waking up while riding in a car. You open your eyes only to see a bus coming straight at you and it is about 10 feet from hitting you. Can you imagine the terror? That is what I felt for those 3 months 24/7. Fear is considered simply an extreme panic condition involving the fear of imminent death. I hope that makes sense.

[FiveNotions]

FH...I just edited/added to my 4:38 pm post....see what you think....

[fishinghat]

Well the niacin rules out the picamilon, but the Phenibut is still in the running.

 

Yes, my adrenaline may still be high but the adrenal gland checks out good in an MRI. No tumors, etc.

"Could the reason that the cymbalta alone took care of the fear be that it's an ssNri, and enhances norepinephrine (noradrenalin), while the Zoloft is just an ssri, thus requiring you to augment it with other meds such as lorazepam, which reduces adrenaline? "

 

Abolutely correct. Both the pdoc and I agree with that. One of the things he is considering doing if problems remain is to raise either the clonidine or atenolol.        

[fishinghat]

Adrenaline does not directly produce fear but it does stimulate the hippocampus which inturn causes the fear sensation.

 

Read the last sentance of this abstract.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23512937

[FiveNotions]

My brain was exploding on that line of discussion,, so I've switched over to phenibut .....

This isn't from a peer-reviewed source, but the comparison of picamilon vs phenibut was one I could follow....
http://nootriment.co...on-vs-phenibut/

Seems there's an addiction/withdrawal concern with phenibut....here's a journal article and some user comments from message boards...

Withdrawal symptoms after internet purchase of phenibut (β-phenyl-γ-aminobutyric acid HCl)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20841974
RMM Magsalin, AY Khan - Journal of clinical psychopharmacology, 2010 - journals.lww.com
DISCUSSION β-Phenyl-γ-aminobutyric acid HCL (phenibut) is a synthetic γ-aminobutyric
acid (GABA) analog that was discovered and introduced in Russia in the 1960s. 2 It is used
to relieve tension, anxiety, and fear, to improve sleep in psychosomatic or neurotic ...


http://nootriment.co...on-vs-phenibut/
http://www.drugs-for...ad.php?t=119000

Edited by FiveNotions, 17 March 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[FiveNotions]

Going back to your initial post in this thread.... What about focusing on down-regulating the glutamate? That might also help with the IBS?

[fishinghat]

Yea I have read all of those articles.

 

Down regulating the glutamate?  What did you have in mind?

[fishinghat]

I found an article on controlling brain glutamate. It said controling extracellular glutamate is impracticle as that glutamate is also involved in over 3 dozen other processes including..protein synthesis, formation of cellular membranes, disposal of cellular nitrogen, learning, memory, new nerve generation and a precursor for he formation of GABA,......

 

To control brain glutamate would lead to to many effects in other areas.

[FiveNotions]

You are amazing, FH, in the depth and breadth of your research and reading! I love it!

What made me ask about the glutamate is this sentence from your first post...

"With the withdrawal from ssri/snri the glutamate causes excitation of these nerves generating fear and anxiety. "

So I did some quick checking on glutamate....

http://mclean.harvar...urrent.php?id=4
http://citeseerx.ist...p=rep1&type=pdf

And a discussion about glutamate, and lamictal to reduce it, on a message board....there are links to a number of research articles...
http://www.dpselfhel...-may-help-dpdr/

[fishinghat]

Yea, that first one was most interesting. I read a lot of the research work at McLean but the article doesnt suggest on how to increase the protein cleaning of these synapses. I certainly don't sufffer from lack of protein in my diet as lean meats are one of he few things I can eat. I know my pcp is constantly telling me to eat more protein as it reduces stress symptoms. I guess this is why.

[fishinghat]

Your not going to beleive this but I have read the second article too. The key here is a process called 'fear extinction therapy'. A new psychological therapy in its infancy. I am sure going to do some reading on that.

[fishinghat]

The last one mentions lamictal to lower Glutamate, I got it BUT when I look at ncbi research it says it is ineffective against anxiety but is sometimes used to treat ptsd. How can that be? They are related. What really got my attention is the side effects of it. WOW

[FiveNotions]

Yeah, I just checked it too, and lamictal sure isn't something I'd feel comfortable taking.... there should be some safer alternatives, if glutamate reduction/control is worth pursuing....

I'm checking now to see what role, if any, glutamate plays in optic neuritis....which seems to be my major permanent or semi permanent "cymbalta gift."

[fishinghat]

You have to read this symposium on "Fear Extinction". It is deep but incredable wht they are trying to do. Unluckily this centers around fear conditioned memories. They talk about that it is more successful in young rather then older individuals (Leaves me out. lol) Unluckilyit covers conditioned fears (memories) not damages fear circuits (like ssri)..

[fishinghat]

Yeah, I just checked it too, and lamictal sure isn't something I'd feel comfortable taking.... there should be some safer alternatives, if glutamate reduction/control is worth pursuing....

I'm checking now to see what role, if any, glutamate plays in optic neuritis....which seems to be my major permanent or semi permanent "cymbalta gift."

Good idea. It seems possible.

 

I am not sure it would be safe to do glutamate reduction given the number of brain processes it is involved in. You might 'cure the disease but kill the patient" as the old saying goes.

[FiveNotions]

Umm....is it one of the links we've got here, or this one, which I'm reading now? ...

http://www.md.rcm.up...ium article.pdf

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat, I'm curious to know if you are truly convinced your brain was affected permanently from Cymbalta? Or are you looking at this as being the worse case scenario?

[fishinghat]

Actually both. Obviously there is no way to be sure BUT there is 7 research articles showing that ssri cause damage to the fear circuits in the amygdala and hippocmpus. That is enough to make me suspicous. Also there is the fact that in 13 years of anxiety I have never used the term fear to describe my symptoms in my journals , nothing even close. The only time I developed fear was when I came off the ssri and snri for the first time.Not proof but on the other hand I want to cover all possibilities.

[Carleeta]

You have to read this symposium on "Fear Extinction". It is deep but incredable wht they are trying to do. Unluckily this centers around fear conditioned memories. They talk about that it is more successful in young rather then older individuals (Leaves me out. lol) Unluckilyit covers conditioned fears (memories) not damages fear circuits (like ssri)..

Fishinghat, the Fear Extinction is a phenomenal piece of research. .Ivan Pavlov's conditioning is definitely found to have worked here..Yes, the old memory cannot be unconditioned, although a new conditioning of the mind takes presidence over the old and the fear is no longer felt...Great piece of research!

[fishinghat]

Umm....is it one of the links we've got here, or this one, which I'm reading now? ...

http://www.md.rcm.up...ium article.pdf

 

Oh crap, I forgot to attach the link. Sorry but I am glad you found it.

[Carleeta]

Actually both. Obviously there is no way to be sure BUT there is 7 research articles showing that ssri cause damage to the fear circuits in the amygdala and hippocmpus. That is enough to make me suspicous. Also there is the fact that in 13 years of anxiety I have never used the term fear to describe my symptoms in my journals , nothing even close. The only time I developed fear was when I came off the ssri and snri for the first time.Not proof but on the other hand I want to cover all possibilities.

Fishinghat, I understand..This is what I thought..Therefore you are left with the medical vs psychological once again..I do see you didn't have fear, or used the term fear, prior to cymbalta..I need to ask you if you feared coming off of cymbalta? Worried about the effects consciously and unconsciously? I guess I'm trying to help you help yourself in seeking the amswer..

[fishinghat]

Carleeta, I am not sure it would help me. If there is damage to these areas obviously it would not fix the damage.If it is due to memories that I have they are old ones. Do you beleive it would help in that situation? Do you have any experience with the technique?

[FiveNotions]

Hehehe....that I found it, based on your "clues," gives me hope that maybe my cognitive functions are returning....gee whiz, maybe I'll be able to go back to work doing what I love.....even if just part time....

I think what concerns me the most for you FH is that laundry list of meds in your "cocktail"....if you end up needing to stay on meds, I'd love it if you cld somehow get rid of most of them, and be left with just one or two that do the job....

I'd love it more if we could find some alternative therapies that would get to the heart of the matter for you and work without meds.....heck, I'd love that for all of us! Which is why I'm so interested in Xiaojie's foray into chinese medicine, my own effort to try yoga, etc.....

[fishinghat]

Oh Carleeta I was soooo happy to come off the cymbalta. I really didn't think I would need it. I had managed to come off most of my original meds so I was excited to eliminate this one. Fear just isn't really in my vocabulary.

[fishinghat]

Hehehe....that I found it, based on your "clues," gives me hope that maybe my cognitive functions are returning....gee whiz, maybe I'll be able to go back to work doing what I love.....even if just part time....

I think what concerns me the most for you FH is that laundry list of meds in your "cocktail"....if you end up needing to stay on meds, I'd love it if you cld somehow get rid of most of them, and be left with just one or two that do the job....

I'd love it more if we could find some alternative therapies that would get to the heart of the matter for you and work without meds.....heck, I'd love that for all of us! Which is why I'm so interested in Xiaojie's foray into chinese medicine, my own effort to try yoga, etc.....

 

I am only thinking about using some or all off;

 

Hydroxyzine - 100 mg x 4/day (Current 100 mg/day) Half-life – 7 to 14 hours.

Clonidine – 0.6 mg/day (Current .25/day) Half-life – 12 to 16 hrs.

Atenolol – 100 mg/day (Current 25 mg/day) Half-life - 6 to 7 hrs

Clonazepam – 4mg/day N/A Half-life – 30 to 40 hrs.

 

I may only need to use one of these in addition to the Zoloft. These are just items I am considering.