123 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

Oh yea. That is why I picked the cocktail I wrote in my first entry as they are the ones that seem to effect the fear the most. I certanly can stay on a benzo for a couple years BUT what after. I can't go back n the ssri/snri or I will repeat the damage to the amygdala and hippocampus. That would mean staying on benzos and you know the problems that brings.

[fishinghat]

Oh, and another question... (Are you feeling like I've got you on the stand, in a grueling cross-examination, yet? Hehehe)

If the Zoloft / Ativan combo worked ( as you learned when you tried to come off Ativan but had to reinstate), why were the other meds added?

Lord, I wish I still drank...heavily..... ;-)

I wish I drank period!!! Can you beleive I am 62 and never had a drink in my life. My freinds all say that is what is wrong with me. I just need to get blitzed!!  lol

 

No FN, not cross examined. It feels more like a freind trying despiratly to help.

 

I was already on the clonidine and atenolol before all this and the hydroxyzine was an effort to help while I was off the ssri/snri. It did help some so I included it in my cocktail.

[fishinghat]

First of all, my best wishes on your freinds cousin. May th good Lord bring him/her home safe.

 

Well Carleeta I agree with those statements/opinions. Like you said I may or may not have this fear circuit damage and even if I do so what? There is no evidence how to treat it. My gut says do not take any more ssri but there is no indication it will make it any worse then now. They don't even know it it will heal itself in the absence of ssri/snri. There is a royal case of uncertainty!!! If I stay on ssri/snri I know it can be controlled. If I go to my cocktail, sure no ssri but MAYBE the feaar is controlled!! Actually I just think my brain is trying to convince me to never allow another ssri/snri in my system. lol   One thing about it, I would hate to go back on Cymbalta after what I went through to get off it!!!! lol

 

Thank you and you family for helping me put this in perspective. I am too close to the trees to see the forest.

[fishinghat]

Oh yea Carleeta, no neuro psychologist here. But I do have a good psychiatrist. He listens close to everything I say then does whatever I ask him!!!  lol   That is the best kind of psychiatrist I have found. lol 

 

Actually he is a very good young man who listens well and tries to work with the patient. He is also very familiar with cymbalta withdrawal. Amazing.

 

Thanks again dear freind.

[FiveNotions]

Wow, Carleeta, how wonderful of you to get your son and nephew to think this through with you for Fishinghat!

My eyes are acting up again tonight, so I had to take a break, but I'll read through what you've added tomorrow....and regroup what I'm doing based on that and what FH has added.....

Fishinghat, you are a much beloved part of this group....I know for certain that I would not have been able to make it this far without your help....heck, if weren't for you when I had that meltdown a couple of weeks ago, I would have given up and gone back on the poison. I want so much to give you the kind of help you've given me....

I may not be able to give you that one piece of research that answers your question, but I can give you my prayers....and you shall have them!

[Wagtail]

Fishinghat my dear dear savior , my heart aches that after all you have done to help me in my moments of need ! I can not help you in yours.
I have read all the above posts from everyone else & can only act as a bi - stander here.
I don't have the experience or the knowledge to offer any sound advice .
Fivenotions has done extremely well with all the research which appears to cover all aspects of the pros & cons.

Carleeta hit a nerve with me , with the quote " living with uncertainty causes high anxiety & stress ."
This explained something to me , thank you Carleeta.

Fishinghat , jump on a plane & come down under for a couple of weeks . Maybe if nothing else it might be a distraction for a while .
You would love Australia , it's very laid back with great fishing .
All jokes aside my friend , I pray that you will get some peace from the dreaded fear .
Wouldn't it be great if they could operate & remove the part of our brains that trigger this dreadful feeling !.
Please don't feel alone in the AM hrs when you're battling that demon , just remember that we are all out here & feeling the fear with you .
We can hold imaginary hands in support of each other , maybe we can find a wardrobe that will hold us all , including our teddy bears.
Try to breathe through the fear mate.
Xxx

[fishinghat]

I sure do appreciate all the effort and prayers. They are a blessing. For right know I have went back on my full dose of lorazepam  and I would say I am back to 80% again. I know there are more questions than answers about a lot of this but when it comes down to it, like Carleeta and FN suggested,  just focus on those meds that have helped the fear and once stable try to come off some of the others. AND DON"T WORRY TOO MUCH!!  Ugghhh. What me worry? Darn right. lol  My wife says I think too much. Like ThisMoment says...live in the moment.

[FiveNotions]

I think it was a solid decision to go back to the full dose of lorazepam, FH....like you always remind us....it's important to get stabilized before making any further changes....

I've also read back through everything posted here.... Carleeta's words of wisdom on living with uncertainty stand out....

Putting aside all the what drugs to take how to do it questions you've asked for a moment....here's what is of most concern to me....your nutritional status.... Good nutrition is something I lacked completely before I found myself in cymbalta withdrawal hell.... And getting back to good nutrition has been one of the blessings that flowed from that hell....my body was depleted, and I'm pretty sure I thus suffered more than I needed to .....

what you're eating in order to deal with the IBS seems very deficient to me....how are you getting the full range of vitamins and minerals that your body needs? And if your body is starved for those, it's not going to be able to support you during any med changes you want to try....

In addition to the basic vitamins and minerals, there are a group of things the body needs in sufficient amounts in order to foster the nervous system's health and healing....one of the key ones is omega-3, since the body doesn't produce it and it's not even found in a normal diet in sufficient quantities....

Could you at least start taking omega-3? It's also been said to be of help in treating IBS.....

If taking these things in pill form mess with your IBS, wld taking them (if available) sublingually work?

[FiveNotions]

FH, I've been sipping my morning herb tea and reading about neuro regeneration...... Ran across several neuroregeneration reasearch programs, thought you might not have heard of them and be interested..... Have you considered contacting places like this...just directly emailing some of the researchers?

Harvard University, Mailman Research Center, Neuropharmacology Laboratory
http://mclean.harvar...arch/mrc/nl.php
"Current laboratory projects include quantitative autoradiographic analysis of long-term effects of typical, atypical, and novel antipsychotic drugs on the level and distribution of dopaminergic, serotonergic, glutamatergic and other receptors..."

Also at Harvard, Mailman Research Center -- Neuroregeneration Research Institute
http://mclean.harvar...rch/mrc/nrl.php

Johns Hopkins U
http://www.hopkinsme...generation.html

Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences
http://www.usuhs.mil...neuroregen.html

[fishinghat]

Your comments on diet are right on. Everytime my digestive tract settles down I try to eat some veggies but that only lasts for one meal. I have been tested for Celiac Disease and gluten sensativity and passed both. Omega 3 just kills my IBS. Recently there is a new prescription version of it that is enteric coated. It wasn't any better. Sublingual is a thought but I bet it would taste like  ..... I will look into it though. I have been taking a vegatable based vitamin for teenagers though for about 6 months. It is low enough dose on the B and E vitamins that it doesn't seem to bother my stomach. On top of that it comes in cute little animal shapes. (OH Boy!!).  I have been trying to find some dried concentrated veggie capsules but can not find a source.

[fishinghat]

Neuroregeneration? HHMMM  I am familiar with them from back in the 80s and 90s. At that time a tremendous amount of work being done on stimulating nerve regeneration in paralyzed patients but not on the brain. I will look into that also.  I know that current rate of natural regeneration of nerves is set at 1 cm (2/5") every 2 years. And boy that is slow. I will check out both of these ideas.

[fishinghat]

OK, No luck on the sublingual Omega 3. Thats a releif! I bet that would have tasted like sucking on an old dead carp. lol

[fishinghat]

Neuroregeneration has obviously not changes much over the years. This comment from the Mayo Clinic....

 

"The nervous system is divided into two parts: the CNS (central nervous system), which consists of the brain and spinal cord, and the peripheral nervous system, which consists of cranial and spinal nerves along with their associated ganglia. While the peripheral nervous system has an intrinsic ability for repair and regeneration, the central nervous system is, for the most part, incapable of self-repair and regeneration. There is currently no treatment for recovering human nerve function after injury to the central nervous system"

 

I also found that last sentence repeated at the Cleveland Clinic. .

 

The Harvard link was very interesting...

 

"ellular Neurobiology Laboratory"

"The Cellular Neurobiology Laboratory is interested in understanding the cellular and molecular mechanisms of neurotransmitter release, as well as the modulation of release through various receptor-activated signal transduction pathways in the amygdala and hippocampus. We utilize a combination of electrophysiological, cell biological, and molecular genetic techniques to investigate the molecular mechanism of synaptic transmission at central synapses. Such basic mechanisms are likely to play an important role in long-term synaptic plasticity in the mammalian brain.

More recently we have begun to explore the synaptic mechanisms of learned fear using fear conditioning training paradigm. Now we are trying to relate the long-term synaptic modifications in the amygdala synapses induced by behavioral training to memory of this conditioning experience (see the articles in Harvard Gazette (1 and 2), Focus, Harvard Crimson and Harvard Medicine)."

 

Notice there work focuses on the Amygdala and Hippocampus synapses. These are the ones damaged by ssri BUT they are only studying the release mechanism NOT trying any repair work.

[fishinghat]

Well I did some real digging into dehydrated fruit and vegatable capsules. Only found about 6 companies that sell them. Prices range from $14 to $150 for a one month supply. What concerned me was that the reviews were not that impressive. We have a big natural food store here in town with some people I trust. I think I am going to turn this project over to them for study.

[fishinghat]

I ran across this and thought I would share it with you because we recently discussed the relationship between ssri and seratonin.

 

"SSRIs inhibit the reuptake of serotonin. As a result, the serotonin stays in the synaptic gap longer than it normally would, and may repeatedly stimulate the receptors of the recipient cell. In the short run this leads to an increase in signalling across synapses in which serotonin serves as the primary neurotransmitter. On chronic dosing, the increased occupancy of pre-synaptic serotonin receptors signals the pre-synaptic neuron to synthesize and release less serotonin."

 

This appears to take about two months before the chronic dose calls for less seratonin production.

[Carleeta]

Oh yea Carleeta, no neuro psychologist here. But I do have a good psychiatrist. He listens close to everything I say then does whatever I ask him!!!  lol   That is the best kind of psychiatrist I have found. lol 
 
Actually he is a very good young man who listens well and tries to work with the patient. He is also very familiar with cymbalta withdrawal. Amazing.
 
Thanks again dear freind.

Fishinghat, I meant to type neuro psychiatrist. .Neurology is the science the psychiatrist should have his/her speciality in..Omega 3, I get mine through white albacore tuna in fresh water..I tend to like fish and it's ok on my stomach..I too eat Greek Activision daily to regulate my system..

[fishinghat]

Here is a paradox - My wife and I love to fish and neither one of us like to eat them. On the flip side I guess it doesn't matter whether I like to eat them or not. They do set well on my stomach and they are good for me. Good thought Carleeta. I will say one thing, those probiotics do keep me incredably regular. That is a positive.

 

FYI, By the way both tuna and spinach contain natural chemicals that act as a depressant.

[Carleeta]

Oh Fishinghat. .lol lol...You enjoy fishing so much, and don't eat fish..lol lol lol..Only kidding...Many pp enjoy fishing and don't eat the fish..My niece loves fishing especially fresh water and ice fishing. ..She does love eating fish, although not the fish she catches. .lol lol l o l

Yes fish and spinach also do help with depression. .I love it..

Me too Fishinghat, I love the probiotics...I also have Activia Greek Yogurt incorporated in my diet daily...It really keeps my stomach from bloating along with regular digestion and regularity...Great product for our tummies..

[FiveNotions]

Wow, this thread is chock full of great information, discussion and humor!

Thanks for that item about about ssri's that you posted, FH (2:58 pm today)....

My goodness, your poor digestive system has a hair-trigger.... if you do decide to force yourself to eat fish....is salmon one that you could choke down? It's got lots of good nutrients ....on the topic of fish, if you don't eat them, what do you do with the ones you catch?

Please report back with any useful nutrition info you get from the folks at your natural food store...

WRT the neuroregeneration.... Why aren't the dolts at Harvard working on repair issues? Hell, they ... And big pharma...cld make zillions off of a product, drug or otherwise, that fixes the damn problems they create with cymbalta and the other poisons....I'm tempted to fire off an email to them asking just that....

[fishinghat]

Salmon and trout are the worst tasting fish in my book. We collect all of our fish until we have enough for a fish fry at church!!

 

I will let you know what the nat food store says sometimes this week.

 

I hope the research clinic will at least find out what the mechanism is and then someone can work on a fix.

[FiveNotions]

Fishinghat, have you looked into the GABA-serotonin connection and Their combine role in moderating/controlling fear? Is there a possibility that taking some combo of GABA and 5-ht supplements would be beneficial?

http://www.researchg...14a332c494a.pdf
http://www.scienceda...30128104739.htm
http://www.scienceda...91022101532.htm
http://www.jneurosci...4/9233.full.pdf
http://www.degruyter...o-2012-0052.xml
http://www.sciencedi...02839081100373X

[fishinghat]

Well you may have hit on something (although it is another medicine). lol If you have the time look over......

 

 

 

 

 

GABA

The only way to deliver GABA effectively is to circumvent the blood-brain barrier. Indeed, there are a small, limited number of over-the-counter supplements that are derivatives of GABA, such as phenibut and picamilon combines niacin and GABA and crosses the blood–brain barrier as a prodrug that later hydrolyzes into GABA and niacin.

Phenibut

There are numerous reports of withdrawal symptoms on Internet forums and blogs  including "nervousness and shakiness, psychomotor agitation, feeling easily annoyed and irritated, fatigue, poor appetite, heart pounding and racing, nausea, insomnia, and feeling tense and keyed up", consistent with its GABA_B agonist properties. There has been no systematic study of this problem

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23391959

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21476277

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20841974

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19899708

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19334514

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18607733

 

Picamilon

Picamilon is able to cross the blood–brain barrier and then is hydrolyzed into GABA and niacin. The released GABA in theory would activate GABA receptors potentially producing an anxiolytic response. The second released component, niacin acts as a strong vasodilator, which might be useful for the treatment of migraine headaches.

Reported side effects include, but are not limited to, lightheadedness and decrease in blood pressure.

Phemibut has been researched more completely than picamilon. Neither are to be taken with benzos,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14558352

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2736292

 

 

 

 

5-HT₃

Seratonin can cross the blood brain barrier but must be used in higher than normal dosages.

Here are some of the reported 5-HTP side effects:

• Gastrointestinal disturbances such as flatulence, feeling of fullness, heartburn, edema, diarrhea or constipation and rumbling sensations
• Nausea
• Rashes or flushing
• Headaches
• Vivid dreams, at times worsening to become nightmares

In addition, for those suffering from the following conditions, it may be better to opt for an alternative medication as 5-HTP may bring about negative and harmful side effects:

• Cardiovascular conditions which include high blood pressure, post-heart attack post-stroke
• Chronic digestive disorders such as Crohn's Disease, ulcers, or irritable bowel syndrome
• Anorexia Nervosa
• Liver and lung disease
• Myalgia, Peripheral Neuropathy, sickle cell anemia and hemophilia

 

 

[fishinghat]

The 5HT looks like it has to many pitfalls especially if it has to be taken in higher doses. BUT the top two are most interesting. As with most treatments there are pro and cons.  Let me know what you think.

[fishinghat]

I have been on a phenibut forum talking to some of the people. They recommend 1 gr 2 or 3 times per week. This will handle light or even moderate anxiety. Do not take dosages every day as it is very addictive, bad withdrawal and you build up tolerance quickly requireing higher dosages, a no no.

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat. .I'm thinking you are interested in finding something to replace your ativan? You are looking into the picamilon and phenibut to do this?

[fishinghat]

Fishinghat. .I'm thinking you are interested in finding something to replace your ativan? You are looking into the picamilon and phenibut to do this?

I was considering it. Do you know anything about them?

[fishinghat]

I was just on a forum for Picamilon. They said the results are varied in nature not only from person to person but day to day. Many use it with other supplements but not alone. They suggested that it really isn't functional for severe anxiety/fear. Oh yea. They also mention that it provides a lot of energy from the niacin. I don't need more energy!!! lol

[FiveNotions]

I'm working through the phenibut and picamilon info.....will need a bit of time. ;-)

WRT using GABA itself, my personal experience..... I've been (very carefully) trying it for my own anxiety/panic....trying to find something to use when the self-accupressure doesn't work.....what I've found is that, even though much of the literature says it doesn't cross the BBB, it is very effective when I use it....so I haven't pursued the phenibut, etc....for me, a small dose of the GABA works within about 30 minutes....I've worked up from about 25 mg. to about 100 mg, anything more is way too much and just makes me incredibly sleepy and kind of numb feeling .... 100 mg puts a rapid stop to my anxiety/panic.....the most I've needed to take is a second 100 mg dose about 2-3 hrs after the first one....and it seems to last....

I'll see if I saved the articles I found that support the effectiveness of GABA regardless of the BBB issue....

WRT 5-HT, I've decided it makes me feel weird/awful...even at low doses.....I had been trying it with tyrosine (for dopamine), to see if I needed a serotonin boost....but no....after a couple of weeks I dropped it....(I still take tyrosine, however...a low dose)

And, since we're discussing amino acids here, I'll add a CAVEAT for everyone who reads this....aminos are strong substances..and can be harmful if used incorrectly......please....don't just start taking them because someone else reports having success .... Research the stuff, and come here for group input before using them!

[FiveNotions]

Re: GABA and the blood brain barrier

This article posits that GABA does not need to cross the BBB in order to be effective..... This corresponds to my own personal experience with it....

http://www.phyllisbr...BronsonGABA.pdf
While the mechanism of action of GABA is not completely understood, it appears to act on the CNS directly without crossing the blood/brain barrier. In the CNS, the GABAA receptor (often referred to as GABAAR) is in- hibitory, meaning that when GABA binds to
it, the result is a calming effect on the body. The GABAAR is a pentameric (i.e., five-sided) structure comprised of combinations of alpha and beta subunits. Each subunit in turn is comprised of four trans-membrane spanning alpha-helices, which pass through and form a central chloride ion channel. The active site (binding site for GABA) is the alpha-4 sub- unit which is located between the alpha and beta subunits. When two GABA molecules bind together in this site, the molecule opens the channel and allows chloride ions to flow. This hyperpolarization results in neuroinhibi- tion, or a sensation of calm. All of this is done without the GABA molecule actually cross- ing the blood/brain barrier.

[fishinghat]

I understand what you are saying and have no doubt this is true but if my fear is related to the amygdala and hippocampus then it is essential that it not only passes through the BBB but in sufficient quantities to calm the fear in my brain. Certainly calming my body would be an asset but my main concern now is the fear factor. I am not ruling it out but I am not sure in my case it is a fix either.