32 replies to this topic

[Rhodes54]

This looks like an optimum forum for getting rid of my Cymbalta addiction.  Said 'decision' may be already made since I just ran out of my last bottle and my doc couldn't leave samples out for me before I leave town for the weekend.   i've been lurking here for a while thinking I should get this crap out of my system.  I've had this lingering suspicion that it doesn't really DO anything for me. I've been on it for 12 years.   I never had a paralyzing major depression, fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis or low back pain. I have that sucky low-grade depression that just puts me underwater up to the ears; exhausted and lonely.  I can see the world around me, but the sounds are muffled and I don't feel connected to it in any meaningful way.

 

(It's possible that you've stopped reading at this point. I know I would have.) 

 

First the highlights:

 

52 year old male, 190 lbs in really good health. Blood pressure normal. Blood work fine.  Workout 3-4 times a week.  No allergies, I can't remember the last time I even had a cold or flu.

 

6-7 hours sleep seems to do alright, but wish I could get by with less.  

 

I've had mild depression/dysthymia since my 20s ( shared genetic trait; the family that mopes together, dopes together? ) Over the years, I've ridden the course many common depression meds.  Off the top of my head, Nardil, Prozac, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor,....

 

My patented analysis of AD meds:

1. Effectiveness  

2.Tolerable side-effects  

3.Long term results

 

…but you can only pick TWO. 

 

I'm told I have ADD+ (can't hold conversation if there is a television on, can't walk to garage to get a tool for an otherwise simple task without seeing some OTHER simple task that immediately becomes more important, have a growing list of tasks that never get done despite feeling like i was busy all day. Can't retain anything from a phone conversation. Tend to write in fragments instead of complete sentences. Those are symptoms, right?)

 

 

Currently taking:

 

 Cymbalta, been on it 12 years.  started with 60mg,  increased to 90 after a year, went up to 120 for a few years, back to 90 and lately, dropped to 60mg.  I'm not sure I've noticed any difference at any dosage, but it was what the doctor ordered. The only time I truly noticed something is about 8 years ago, I was feeling so good that I decided to stop cold turkey.  That lasted about 2 months and then anxiety and panic came on very strong. (In retrospect, it was a stupid idea since I hadn't done any research AND I was a month away from getting married [which I also hadn't researched] )  

 

 Adderall:  I was on 30mg daily for a while, and was great for the first few months. I guess I started building tolerance; I ceased to get any effect.  It has now been dropped it to "as needed" 

 

 Alprozalam .5mg when anxiety gets too bad. I like the relaxing effect, but since the primary source of anxiety is not having the focus or energy to get things done, benzos are sadly counter-productive. 

 

Alcohol eliminates depression and anxiety immediately and entirely.  i can't have a even a sip of beer during the day, because it knocks me right out. Drinking at night has opposite effect- can't seem to have enough, get very motivated, never seem to get "drunk" 

Friends and family have expressed concern about the quantity of alcohol intake, but no one has ever said anything about changed behavior.  Maybe a bottle of wine a night unless I'm "working" and there's a band tab.  Then it becomes reckless.

I should probably quit drinking, but I need something for social lubrication. 

 

 Smoked a pack a day until about 3 years ago but haven't had a single puff or craving since getting hooked on the e-cig. 

 

My diet is mostly protein, fat and vegetables.  I try to stay off grains and sugars.  

 

I've become something of a supplement junkie in the last two years, 

 

A combination of doctors recommendations, forum lurking and eavesdropping currently has me following, more or less, this supplement regimen:

 

Morning ritual, usually without breakfast:

2-3 cups coffee with 1g L-theanine, 1g Maca root powder and tablespoon of clarified KerryGold butter.  (It's my spin on the Bulletproof coffee recipe) 

 

Pre-workout mix of PS Craze, 2g cinnamon powder and 7-10g of kratom powder.

Post gym: smoothie made with kale, blueberries, 1/2 banana, 1/2 avocado  2 pasture eggs, plain greek yogurt, 5g creatine, 10g whey protein powder. 

 

Mid-morning after some kind of snack:

 

Generic Multi 

Fish Oil 4-5g Costco Brand

B12  5000mcg sublingual 

Vitamin C.  2-3g Costco

DHEA 50mg

Magnesium Citrate 450mg 

Cymbalta 60mg

DLPA 500mg

ZMA 1500mg

B-500 complex

D3 5000iu

 

Before bed:

Valerian capsule and Costco Melatonin Ultra  

 

Wasteful much?  I'm sure there's a lot of filler in all that, but I honestly enjoy the ritual.  

 

Supplements that are on the "as needed" list, meaning occasional use:

 

Adderall

Phenibut

Kratom

Xanax

NuVigil

420

 

Supps I'm interested in but have yet to explore:

 

Lion's Mane

Rhodiola Rosea

Deprenyl

5-HTP

I've also been tempted by the recent studies involving low doses of psilocybin or DMT or ketamine for treatment-resistant depression. 

 

 

 

If you've read this far, thanks.  If you have suggestions, advice, experience, derisive criticism, etc., thanks all the more. I don't really have anyone locally to talk to.  Please don't say, "Ask your doctor", because I've yet to meet with any medical professional who can speak intelligently about both pharms AND herbal supplements/nootropics.  (A few years back, my forum lurking saved my dad from prostate surgery because his urologist had never heard of brachytherapy. When Cymbalta first came out, I had to tell my own doctor about it. I have very little faith in the medical community.) 

 

 

[lady2882Nancy]

Hi Rhodes54

 

I don't know a whole lot about the supplements you are taking as have never taken all that many myself.

One thing I do know is that you should NOT take 5HTP until you are completely off the cymbalta for a few weeks. Since they both do the same thing you would be at risk of serotonin syndrome.

 

I would discuss this with your pharmacist if I were you. Usually if you give them a list of the supplements you take then they will look it all up and let you know if there are any conflicts with any meds.

 

Don't forget that alcohol is a mood altering drug as well and highly addictive. There has to be a better way to feel better than that and it is very hard on your liver which needs to be in top shape to detox your body.

 

Take care

 

Oh and I did read the whole thing and more than once to get it all lol

[Rhodes54]

Thanks for your reply, lady2882nancy

I've read about not combining 5-HTP with cymbalta and have avoided it. Logically, I recognize alcohol being a depressant, but I've never noticed any particular benefit from stopping. I've quit drinking cold turkey several occasions for as much as a month, expecting some newfound surge of energy, release from addiction and/or emotional uplift that never came. I only felt helpless when the inevitable depression and anxiety episodes came on and I had no defense.

I wish I had asked at the top of my original post; Does EVERYONE go through such extreme withdrawals from Cymbalta? Is there some kind of self-test one can perform, like skipping a day or more to see how bad it gets before committing? Other than the emotional disconnect and mild sexual side effects, I've never noticed much when increasing/decreasing dosages.

I just don't think after 12 years this med is doing anything for me other than dulling my feelings.

I don't have a regular pharmacist to talk to, since I have to bargain shop every refill, much less finding one who could tell me about interactions with nootropics/herbs and which would help regulate serotonin during withdrawal

Thank you again for your reply and I look forward to hearing from anyone on the forum

[fishinghat]

The medical research says that only 19 to 31% have withdrawal from the medicine. An average of around 20%. As far as I know there is no self-test so to speak but....Cymbalta has a short half-life which is why it hits you hard and fast. If you wanted to find out just step down your dosage. Go from 60 to 30 for a week, then 30 every other day. Now I am not a doctor but this seems to be the way most doctors suggest. If you get to 30 mg every other day for a week with no problem I would say you would be OK. If things start getting bad during this process just go back to 60 mg until stable. If you are still interested in getting off this crap then you can try the bead counting method which is a lot slower but easier.

[Rhodes54]

I've stepped down to 30 since Thursday will nothing noticeable.  Maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones.  I'm seeing my pdoc tomorrow, so maybe they can suggest something.  (Who am I kidding?  I'm always the one bringing HER information.)   Thanks for everyone's input.  

[fishinghat]

Sounds great so far Rhodes54. Let us keep our fingers crossed for you.

[Rhodes54]

Day 6 since going straight from 60mg->30mg.  Nothing noticeable. In fact,  I feel amazing. I am supplementing with:

 

1000mg theanine (spread out over the day,

1g Maca powder,

4g fish oil,

B complex,

1g mucuna pruriens powder (whole bean, not extract),

500mg DMAE

Melatonin and Valerian before bed. 

Lots of clarified pasture butter, unrefined coconut oil, pasture eggs, wild-caught Alaskan salmon, local kale and grass-fed beef. 

 

 I met with my doc Monday and told her my plan.  She suggested staying on 30mg for another week and then keeping a small supply on hand in case I started developing symptoms.  

[fishinghat]

Sounds like it is going well so far. That is great, I hope it continues.

[Rhodes54]

Got a full blood panel today.  I'll post the results when they come back as if anyone cares.  Day 8 since going from 60mg -> 30mg.  I'm thinking of skipping dose Saturday and then going off on Monday. 

[lady2882Nancy]

Hi Rhodes54

 

That would be interesting to see how your blood work comes out.

 

8 days on 30mg. Good for you. How have you been feeling?

 

I hope that everything goes smoothly for you on Saturday. It should let you know how you will react.

 

Here's hoping that you are in the 80% group

 

Take care

[DinCA]

Rhodes54

How are you feeling?  still good?  

I was wondering this morning whether someone has tried the supplements PRIOR to stopping.....if having that kind of back up BEFORE trying to come off the crapalta helps with the withdrawals.  I have been searching here off and on this afternoon...yours is the first post I have seen that comes close, as you were already taking some of the supplements for a while before.  But there is sooo much information here....sometimes it takes a while to find something specific.

 

Seems like most of us didnt find this site until after the fact.   Something I am very grateful for but wish I had found it before I started walking the long back road thru hell. 

 

It would certainly help those getting ready to quit,  if the supplements help even more if you start taking them a while before stopping and get a kind of good, strong supplemental...internal army ... together before the big fight. 

 

Does anyone know if that is  the case? 

 

   I hope you are still doing well after stopping.

[lady2882Nancy]

Just to answer the question.

Yes we have had people who have started the supplements before starting the taper and they have done well. Only problem is that we don't know if they would have had problems stopping cymbalta or not anyway as there is no way to know if someone will have problems or not until they try tapering or stopping.

 

The only thing that I know is that the only sure fired way of stopping without bad side effects is a very slow taper. That means that if you have even a small side effect while tapering then you immediately go back to the dose from the day before and stay there until that little side effect stops then you can resume tapering.

 

If a person has side effects while tapering then they are tapering too fast for them. It is all relative to how this particular poison affects that person.

 

Oh to be in the 80% who is not affected in any serious way by this crap.

[Rhodes54]

Look, I'm back!  So I've been off Cymbalta for 33 days after a two-week taper from 90-0mg

First week, I felt AMAZING!  Bulletproof!   This has continued for a while.  I've kept up my gym and supplement regimen.  Lately, though, this past week, I've been getting more distracted, anxious and even more irritable than usual.  Today, while taking a short power nap/meditation, I think I got one of those "brain zaps".  Felt like a static discharge in my head.  Not painful...just a small zap.  Hmm...   Texted my doc who suggested this might happen and to take 30mg just in case.

 

On a side note, in the last week I ran out of fish oil (taking 5g daily for 1800 total Omega-3)  AND I reduced alcohol intake dramatically, maybe having a single 12oz strong ale every other day instead of a bottle of wine or whatever the rest of the band is drinking.  Got the fish oil restocked.  I wonder if the sudden decrease of alcohol combined with the drop in Omega 3's could be causing the downward spiral OR if the Cymbalta withdrawal is kicking in.  

 

Alternately, it could be serotonin depletion since the Cymbalta is no longer the foreman on that site.   I'll research this, of course, but what is the general consensus about how long to wait after stopping an SNRI before investigating 5-HTP, SJW or Kanna?

 

I said I'd post the bloodwork, but it's pretty long.  There was nothing on it that stood out and my lipids have actually improved since I switched to paleo/primal diet.  Let me know if you'd like anything specific.  

[Rhodes54]

Looking through old bookmarks.  No one is reading this thread anyway.  I've now been off Cymbalta for 204 days.  Doing mostly OK.  There are days when I'm really down and wonder if it's because I'm not on ANY anti-dep meds, but those spells don't last for more than a day or two.  I will share the most effective method I've found (and I've tried a LOT) for dealing with bad days....... kratom.  I've never taken anything else that comes close to immediately lifting my mood. Amazing stuff.  Not trying to advocate or profit by this, just sharing my own experience after having lived in such a black hole for so long.  Viviere memento! 

[FiveNotions]

Great to hear that you're doing so well! Thanks for coming back to let us know!

I'm not sure that kratom is a good way to go for most of us here...good to know it's helping you....but have you researched it fully? It's illegal in a number of Asian countries, and the FDA here seems to be considering the same..... It's definitely being used "recreationally".....

I just spent some time out on the 'net ...and many commenters indicate that it has helped them in opiate withdrawal, others indicate that it's a great "high"...and others say that it has been addictive for them and that they've had trouble getting off it as well....

Let's see what others here have to add to this discussion....

http://www.scientifi...ratom-be-legal/

http://www.foxnews.c...ant-based-high/

http://www.drugs-for...ead.php?t=55855

http://www.drugs-for...ead.php?t=55855

[Rhodes54]

I did quite a bit of research into it.  There is a considerable amount of misinformation and scare tactics reported on kratom. Like many effective herbals and medications, kratom has to potential for abuse and is hence more newsworthy, especially for an outlet like Fox News.  

 

From what I've gathered, most of the reasons for it's illegality in Asian countries is due to kratom's impact on the lucrative opium trade, much like marijuana was made illegal because it was a threat to "Big Cotton".  Could be crackpot conspiracy, but most health "news" eventually leads back to money. 

 

I certainly would encourage anyone/everyone to do their own research.  I can only offer that kratom works really well for ME in regards to depression/anxiety and the "high" is more of a relaxed motivational energy at moderate doses. 

[FiveNotions]

Interesting.... I'll look into it further...I also searched the archives here, and yours seems to be the first post mentioning kratom....I'm looking forward to hearing what others in the group have to add....FishingHat in particular is a great source for research ....

[FiveNotions]

Nope, I've ruled this out for me...too many "ifs" about the dosage and the side effects....

http://www.sagewisdo...ratomguide.html

[Rhodes54]

It's fairly easy if you don't mess about with teas and "extracts". Some of the doses they mention are FAR beyond what I would consider.  I only order plain leaf powder from a quality vendor and toss it back in glass of juice.   There's a wealth of info and support on the forums at kratomconnoisseurs.com 

 

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.  I'm only sharing this because it's helped me crawl out of the 30-year emotional sinkhole of depression and the numbness of the AD meds I used to rely on. It definitely bears looking into. 

[Carleeta]

Rhodes54..Glad to see you popped back in to share your progress. It's always welcoming hearing how one is doing so far into the Cymbalta withdrawl phase/phases..Sounds like you are able to handle things quite well. Thank God.

I see you are using Kratom and it works for you. This sensitive area and one which I see is legal in the US. Won't say what I may know concerning this sensitive area ( I have not tried it ) although I will say since you havefonr research yourself, others also need to research Kratom..It's Definitely somethings which needs research even beyond the internet..

A word about Kratom..please check this thoroughly especially when blood work and urine testing is done, especially random drug tests at work...Having said that..it's strictly up to the individual to make this choice.

Rhodes54..Once again thank you for popping back in keep posting your progress..

[FiveNotions]

Excellent points, Carleeta..... And Rhodes54, please do continue to post and let us know how things are going... Every little bit of knowledge and experience you can share is beneficial to all of us...and those who arrive here in the future!

[Carleeta]

FiveNotions, thank you. I only bring up these points because when drug tested at work so many individuals forget to list on their medical sheet they are using benzos, antidepressants, and pain killers. Therefore, even if they have prescriptions for these meds, many are embarrassed and ashamed to write them down. Then boom when a random drug test comes up they are shocked and they need to bring in their prescriptions..Ive seen this so many times and so often. Many of herbal drugs can mimic prescription drugs and give false positive results. This also depends on the sensitivity of the drugs test, whether it be a urine vs a blood drug test.

Im glad you researched this Kratom and made your decision. Its definitely something that needs research and a straight talk with your medical team.

[fishinghat]

FN is correct. Great caution should be exercised before use of this product. It reacts with the same receptors as opium. Immediate deaths have occured with taking it. Most commercial (internet) products contain codiene, pseudoephrine, caffiene and other stimulants with the Kratom. Some foreign countries are using this like you would an opiod pain killer. It is addictive and you can build up tolerance to it.

 

Some light reading; lol

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24325774

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23212430

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23206666

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23082895

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854

[fishinghat]

Here are some details on the withdrawal from Kratom.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20798544

 

Seizures and comma;

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20411370

 

The more I read the more it sounds like a drug similar to the alkoids in opium.

[Carleeta]

Fishinghat, you are absolutely right..that's exactly what its like.

[Rhodes54]

Sorry all, didn't mean to start a thing on this.  I don't document all my readings. I simply gather useful info, evaluate its source and make decisions.  In my experience and from everything I've read, kratom seems magnitudes less dangerous than Cymbalta, opiates, sugar, wheat, etc   Plain leaf ground kratom, from a reliable vendor contains no 'codiene, pseudoephrine, caffiene and other stimulants' and seems to help a lot of people in dealing with a variety of  mental and physical health issues.

[FiveNotions]

Oh gosh, no Rhodes54.... You didn't start "a thing" ..... You shared your positive experience with this stuff, and that gave all of us an opportunity to research and discuss it .... This is a discussion, not an argument.... We're here to learn from each other..... And I've learned a lot from what you've shard....Also, as I reread your posts, I realize that you may be on a completely different level of health, fitness and nutrition than many of us....certainly me... I don't exercise, i have several other health problems, I'm new to the whole nutrition and supplements thing, etc.... Frankly, I marvel at all you do, at the age of 52...including getting off cymbalta!

[Carleeta]

Sorry all, didn't mean to start a thing on this.  I don't document all my readings. I simply gather useful info, evaluate its source and make decisions.  In my experience and from everything I've read, kratom seems magnitudes less dangerous than Cymbalta, opiates, sugar, wheat, etc   Plain leaf ground kratom, from a reliable vendor contains no 'codiene, pseudoephrine, caffiene and other stimulants' and seems to help a lot of people in dealing with a variety of  mental and physical health issues.

Rhodes54.  No No, you didn't start anything.  Infact what you posted is helpful for those you will be researching Kratom. My answer to your post was including additional information if people are concerned about drug testing where they work.  By no means is your post negative...I and others will see it as positive and do the research on it and check if it's going to work for them and if they want to chose it or not.  This forum is all about choices here.  I commend you for bringing this out.  Please realize your post is going to be an asset for viewers here and members.  I do thank you for it. 

Keep posting and let us know about your progress.

[Clara]

Rhodes54, glad you came back and checked in. Kratom, I'm clueless about it! I am trying my best to stay totally free of anything that is going to alter my brain. On Paxil first then Cymbalta since prob' mid/late 1990s been off since Mid/late Nov. '13 and my frikkin' brain STILL does not function as it should. So I'm riding this out praying for healing for myself and all others on the forum. Please be careful, and keep us updated! All my best!!! clara

[Rhodes54]

It becomes increasing eye-rolling when I see the phrase "talk to your doctor" or medical team....  wait, I'm repeating myself...

 

  Please don't say, "Ask your doctor", because I've yet to meet with any medical professional who can speak intelligently about both pharms AND herbal supplements/nootropics.  (A few years back, my forum lurking saved my dad from prostate surgery because his urologist had never heard of brachytherapy. When Cymbalta first came out, I had to tell my own doctor about it. I have very little faith in the medical community.) 

 

 

In my later years, I've engaged in a level of questioning that I SHOULD have started DECADES ago.  You talk to your doctor, you read something on WebMD or a forum but the important approach is, WHY is this being said? Who benefits from the distribution of this information?  Your "doctor", whom you implicitly trust,  tells you he wants to try you on this or that med, but how do you know he wasn't just taken out to a fancy lunch by some pharma rep who quoted a few studies (most likely funded by the company he represents).  Sure, you trust your doctor, but maybe he's got his own set of problems and can't be bothered to read the results of every clinical trial that comes out.  So where IS your "doctor" getting his current information?  

 

Thus, after 25 years of battling with depression/anxiety with only marginal results from the medical community,  I made the decision to become my own doctor.  Who else can I trust? You think my 'medical team' knows anything about kratom, kava, mucuna pruriens, maca root, high dose theanine, ayuhuasca, etc?   Besides, I'm my own best guinea pig.   You can see from my supplement experiments above that I've looked into this a bit.  I get my blood work done and do my own interpretation of the results.  

 

I can't say with any authority that what works for me will work for everyone. I'm still not entirely conclusive what it is/was about my regimen that is winning. It's likely a combination of some supplement I'm on, treating depression as a violent enemy and releasing that anger in the gym and avoiding sugar and grains (I don't know about the gluten-free fad, but I'm sticking with 'ALL grains are bad' or at least, not beneficial to the human diet).  

 

When that doesn't work...well, there's kratom, which ALWAYS shines a light, provides energy and puts me in the mood to fight another demon.