109 replies to this topic

[Iratxe]

Thanks for your help, and don´t worry, I will manage to find another suplements if there are any.

 

I am suffering the consequences of my stupidity for trying to leave the last 10 beads last week, feeling as bad as I felt. Although this Monday I have started again to take the 10 beads, I am still feeling worse than before. 

 

And yes, my withdrawal is being especially long. When I feel more stable I will drop a bead a month (another 10 months...). 

 

 

 

Iratxe.

[invalidusername]

Hi Iratxe,

 

I am really sorry to hear what you are doing through - truly I am. It can be horrific. It is going to a take an absolute minimum of 3 -5 days of reinstating the beads to see an improvement. 

 

We have seen many members have issues with the "last 10". They can be such a nasty hurdle to get over. You are right insomuch that it is not a good idea to go cold turkey from that point. Recipe for disaster. Please keep us post on whether the updose shows any signs of improvement for you.

 

If you are really at a lose end, I would suggest you try a small dose of Kratom as you are in Spain. It is readily available all over the EU. I must state that it can be  addictive if you are concerned of such an eventuality, but I have been taking it well over 2 years and never had a problem in holding my dose.

 

It worries me that you have had such dark thoughts. We are here for you whenever you need us.

 

Take care,

 

IUN 

[Iratxe]

Hi IUN,

 

Thanks for your words. 

 

The updose does not show any sign of improvement. I am getting worse (7 days after reinstating). 

 

I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I did it! I should have asked you guys before doing something like that.

 

The primary care doctor and the psychiatrist agreed that it was a good idea to drop the last 10 beds (I'm sure they don't believe me when I tell them what cymbalta withdrawal does for me)

 

I knew It wasn´t a good idea, the problem is that sometimes I am too optiministic. And now, I'm trying to stop blaming myself for what I've done, it only makes things worse.

 

I should ask my psychiatrist if he sees any interaction between Kartom and all the medication I take. But at this point I'll consider it. My psychotherapist wants us to do a therapy session with MDMA, he gets good results with it, but it scares me.

 

Patience again.

 

Take care you also.

 

Iratxe.

[invalidusername]

Don't blame yourself. This will not help you at all. You need to show some self-compassion. It is something I am practising at the moment, and it is SO difficult. 

 

I sincerely doubt whether your psychiatrist will have a good working knowledge of Kratom - you are far better approaching the American Kratom Association (AKA). They will be absolutely straight with you and are the global experts. 

 

MDMA is very potent. That is a serious drug. Unless you are talking very small amounts, which may be worth trying - but we are talking micro-dosing here. MDMA has been used to "reset" some areas of the brain (keeping it simple), but there is no guarantee of this, and it can be very dangerous in an uncontrolled environment. 

 

This is my area of expertise so I would love to hear what happens with regards to this. Please keep me posted.

 

If you need any information of Kratom as well, please just ask and I will help. All information sourced (if I do not know for sure myself) is sourced from only trustworthy sources. 

 

IUN

[Iratxe]

Hi IUN,

Thanks for your suport. My name is Aritz and I'm writing on behalf of Iratxe. I'm her husband.

Recently we found that ketamina is used as a therapy for major depression and anxiety.

Do you know if this therapies may help with cymbalta withdrawal?

Thanks.

Aritz

[invalidusername]

Hi Artiz.

 

My apologies for the delay getting back to you. I have had a lot of problems myself. My wife is very ill and I often have to look after her as a priority. It is such a tough life, and I wish I could get by better than I am at the moment. Suffering from mental health whilst caring for a partner with mental health can be so diffiult- I would not wish it on anyone. 

 

Moving onto Ketamine, this has been used recently to overcome mental health problems, including depression, anxiety and OCD. We have had a number of members who have used this form of treatment with a number of results. 

 

Regarding to withdrawal, this is often used to treat depression and anxiety rather than a withdrawal when other anti-depressants do not work. Here in the UK, the only people that qualigy for this treatment are those people that have tried a number of other methods of overcoming their problems. 

 

It is a very tough alternative to the other methods others gone through of withdrawal that we have mentioned on the site, I would also consider this as a last resort as ketamine can be a very powerful drug that can shake a lot of people up and take a long time to recover from the effects.

 

But if you have, or chose to opt to try this, please let us know as there is a lot of information that we need that would help other people such as yourself. But of there is anything else that we can help with please let us know and we will do our best to help where we can...

 

IUN

[Iratxe]

Hi IUN,

We appreciate a lot your support. We hope you all get better.

We have applied for the treatment in Dr Scheib clinic in Mallorca and we are waiting for their answer. They will see if she is a suitable candidate for treatment. We will share our experience if we go ahead with the it.

We see that many clinics in USA have this treatments as well, maybe Hat has more information related to ketamine treatment.

Thanks again.

Aritz Garmendia

[fishinghat]

Unfortunately my Keramine expertise is limited. What little I know is in the ebook. Sorry

[Iratxe]

Thank you both for your generosity, for always being willing to help.

In the end I have decided not to follow the ketamine treatment.
We spoke yesterday by videoconference with Dr. Scheib, director of the clinic of Malloca. It turns out that if you are taking benzodiazepines the effectiveness of the ketamine treatment is greatly reduced (I take 4mgr of alprazolam retard). Also, in a case like mine, where what I have is not severe depression but rather different types of anxiety with some depressive symptoms, what they offer is a treatment consisting of ketamine, neurofedback, transcranial magnetic stimulation... Only ketamine doesn't seem to work very well in these cases. I tell it in case someone might be interested.

I was excited thinking that there could be something magical to improve. Bad luck.

The truth is that I do not improve anything, I can have some better days but then I go back to hell. I am beginning to fear that I will never get better. How do I know if what I have is just from the cymbalta withdrawal, or is there already something else broken along the way?
Complicated question right?

 

Have a nice day.

 

Iratxe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fishinghat]

Remember, you dropped from 105 beads last July to 10 beads in December. I would normally say that might take 6 to 8 months to to begin to come out of it. One odd thing about Cymbalta is the strong perception you will never get better when you are feeling bad and the opposite. When you feel good you feel like you will never feel bad again. During withdrawal clarity of thought is difficult.  I started keeping track of how many hours I felt OK each day. To my surprise each week number of good hours steadily increased even though It did not seem to be that way tp me. This might give you some clarity if you are improving ir bot.

[Iratxe]

Hi you all!

 

I've been on holidays all of August, not bad.

 

FH:

 

"Remember, you dropped from 105 beads last July to 10 beads in December. I would normally say that might take 6 to 8 months to to begin to come out of it.". 

I have a doubt with this count FH. Because in May I made an attempt to leave the 10 balls. So should I reset the 6 or 8 month counter to 0 in May?

 

"One odd thing about Cymbalta is the strong perception you will never get better when you are feeling bad and the opposite. When you feel good you feel like you will never feel bad again"   

Totally agree

 

I do not write down the number of hours that I have been ok each day, but I do write a summary of how it has gone the day and give it a score. Maybe to track the number of hours is more precise.

 

 

IUN:

 

"MDMA is very potent. That is a serious drug. Unless you are talking very small amounts, which may be worth trying - but we are talking micro-dosing here. MDMA has been used to "reset" some areas of the brain (keeping it simple), but there is no guarantee of this, and it can be very dangerous in an uncontrolled environment. 

 

This is my area of expertise so I would love to hear what happens with regards to this. Please keep me posted."

 

On July 29 I took MDMA, a small dose, 0.13 mgrs.

The result was not the usual one, I think that with no medication for me the result is the common one. When MDMA went up I had a good time, relaxed,  but it was short. And after that, I started to get anxious being 2 days with a lot of physical anxiety. 

It is true that after that I had 10 quite good days, but there does not have to be cause and effect. And no permanent change in my state, no reset in my brain.

 

 

After being not bat in August, I am really on the hell now. I have made a try to reduce 0,5mgr of alprazolam a day (it only lasted 5 days), and that is what has taken me to hell. I'm in a state of panic all day, neurotic, my head is completely out of control. I know that you told me that alprazolam was even harder to withdraw than cymbalta, but that was not my previous experience. I think that is necesary to be stable to start to drop alprazolam, and definitely I am not. I don't know when I'll be able to go back to work if I continue like this. I am very worried about losing my job, it is everything for me.

 

Iratxe.

[fishinghat]

"Remember, you dropped from 105 beads last July to 10 beads in December. I would normally say that might take 6 to 8 months to to begin to come out of it.". 

I have a doubt with this count FH. Because in May I made an attempt to leave the 10 balls. So should I reset the 6 or 8 month counter to 0 in May?

 

Answer -  If that drop occurred over a time period of July to the next may I would reset the clock in May to about 3 to 5 months as that would be a slower drop. Of course that is just an educated guess and we are all different.

 

Thank you very much for the follow-up on the MDMA. That is how we learn is from people like you sharing their experiences.

 

0.5 mg of alprazolam a day is a horrific drop!! I have successfully weaned of benzos twice with no withdrawal BUT it requires a very slow water titration. Many have had success with this method. I learned about it on "benzobuddies" website where I have been a member for years. If you want some information on this technique just let me know. 

 

Also, just a side note many drs I have talked to say to wait at least 2 years to start another withdrawal. Personally, from what I have seen a person should wait at least 6 months to give their body a chance to "heal" and adapt. If your benzo withdrawal is that bad you might try updosing in order to function at your work. You should know that statistics kept be benzobuddies show that updosing with benzos has only a 50% chance of success.

 

Hang in there and try to be patient in all this. You can make this.

[Iratxe]

Hi FH,

 

"0.5 mg of alprazolam a day is a horrific drop!!"

 

I'm already hallucinating a bit, for my psychiatrist that drop in dose is normal (the one that is not normal seems to be me).

 

"I have successfully weaned of benzos twice with no withdrawal BUT it requires a very slow water titration. Many have had success with this method. I learned about it on "benzobuddies" website where I have been a member for years. If you want some information on this technique just let me know."

 

At the moment I will not try to reduce the dose of alprazolam again. But I would love to know this technique that you tell me for when I start doing it. If you could give me a link where to read that information it would be fantastic. One of the problems with trankimazin (alprazolam) retard is that if you break it, it loses its ability to have a delayed or prolonged effect (What is in the coating).

 

"If your benzo withdrawal is that bad you might try updosing in order to function at your work. You should know that statistics kept be benzobuddies show that updosing with benzos has only a 50% chance of success."

 

I have already updosed the benzo dosis, but no much improvement. I sleep better, but nothing else. Panic, nervousness, nausea, the head like crazy... everything is still with me. I didn't think this was possible having updosed the same 0,5 mgrs I dropped, I  didn't understand what was going on,  but with your information I see it more clearly. Thanks. I know in which 50% I am. I also think that the alprazolam withdrawal has mixed with the cymbalta withdrawal. 

 

Right now it is impossible to go to work for me. I took sick leave from work on February 23 (2022). By the following February 22 (2023) I should be able to go back to work. I hope to be better by then.

 

Thanks a lot.

Iratxe.

[fishinghat]

"I also think that the alprazolam withdrawal has mixed with the cymbalta withdrawal."

 

Absolutely

  

"By the following February 22 (2023) I should be able to go back to work. I hope to be better by then."

 

You should be much better by then.

 

I will post the water titration method in just a minute.

[fishinghat]

The titration system for cutting benzo dosages is as follows:

 

This is a procedure called water titration. If gives you good control of your withdrawal. I have used this the last 2 times with no withdrawal. I also know many members of both Benzo Buddies and Cymbalta Withdrawal sites that have successfully used this method.

 

1st - Grind (in a mortar and pestal) three days dose.

 

2nd - Dissolve this in 600 ml of water and shake well. Poor in storage bottle and store in refrigerator.

 

3rd - Every 6 hours, take the bottle out of the refrigerator, shake well and pour out 50 mls and drink it . Usually this can be measured using a graduated shot glass (yes they do have shot glasses that are calibrated this way) and I have also seen tiny measuring cups at Wal-Mart. Some people use a large syringe from a vet supply store or farm supply store to measure the 50 mls. Do this four times per day.

 It is very important to have a stable blood level of a benzo during withdrawal.

 

To make a cut follow the above procedure through step 2. To make a three percent drop, make a new batch, shake well and  remove 18 ml from that 600 ml solution. Then add 18 ml of water back to the bottle. You have just removed 3% of the medicine. Still take 50 mils 4 times per day.

 

Remember, benzos do not fully dissolve so always shake the solution before making cuts or taking a dose.

 

Note:

I have been a member of benzobuddies since 2004 and that is where I learned about water titration. I have never suffered withdrawal. I have also had two pdocs that have encouraged this method as well.

I have described what procedures I follow and you can ask questions from there.

 

 

Example;

Lets say I am on 3 mg of lorazepam per day.

 

Step one - Dissolve 9 mg of Lorazepam (a 3 day supply) in 600 ml of water. Room temperature is fine.

 

 

Step 2 - Take 50 ml of this solution every 6 hours. This will provide you a more stable blood level of your benzo rather then taking it every 8 hours.

 

Step 3 - Once you decide to start tapering make up a new batch at the same 9 mg in 600 ml of water BUT this time remove 1 ml of the solution and replace with one ml of pure water and continue taking 50 ml every 6 hours. This is a 0.17% drop. Very small. If after a few days you feel no withdrawal then you can try dropping 2 ADDITIONAL mls each time. If after a few days and no problems then you can try removing 3 additional mls each time.

Step 5 - At some point you will start to notice some light withdrawal, drop back to the previous dose and stay there to stabilize. Once stable then you can continue to drop at that slower rate with little to no withdrawal.

Caution - Benzos do NOT totally dissolve in water so you must shake vigorously before pouring your 50 ml dose. It is recommended to use PEG (polyethylene glycol) to dissolve the benzo because it will totally dissolve in that material. Unluckily PEG can upset the stomach in some people (like me) and then water may have to be used.

 

I have done this several times and am aware of several other individuals who have done the same with little to no problems.

Klonopin is considered by most drs to have the worst benzo withdrawal with lorazepam second. You are lucky that you are only on alprazolam. It is not as bad.

There is a new FDA warning that staying on a benzo too long increases the risk of dementia. Benzos are not to be used for a period of more than 4 months.

 

[Iratxe]

Great! Thank you very much.

 

Right now I'm not ready to make any changes to my medication, but when I feel better I'll start with this.
Meanwhile I will start looking for the bottles with mls measures that I will need.

 

 

Iratxe.

[Iratxe]

Hi,

I need some information considering your experience and knowlage.
I am feeling so bad that I am thinking that to enter to a psychiatric hospital could be a good idea. Have you ever been in one or do you know people that have ever been? It worries me that they will not understand the cymbalta withdrawal problem and to get even worse in the hospital. But I can't stand my feelings or sensations.

[fishinghat]

First, you must understand this is just one man's opinion.

 

I have never been in one but have talked to many who have. Typically, many do what I call cold turkey treatment. Stop everything and try to treat withdrawal symptoms as they develop. Often these treatments use meds that will have their own withdrawal. Most do not understand Cymbalta withdrawal.  I am sure there are those that have been helped but I have never met one who would recommend the process.

[Iratxe]

I have heared similar things too. But the doctors around me think that is a good idea, and my husband who is really worried needs to do something too.
And I am all the time screaming for help.
I think that I am in the fear-adrenaling-fear cycle. I do not get the point of floating (Claire Weekes, I have seen in some thread here that you know her books). Maybe acceptance is being dificult too after being better during a while and worse than ever now. I think that probably the alprazolam has something to do with all this mess.

[fishinghat]

Acceptance, meditation, therapy etc are all good options but they can only go so far. There is a point when even medication can't totally resolve the issue. That is why we always encourage people to go very slow and develop what options that they find work for them. The rest is just time and patience.

[Iratxe]

Yes, there are small things that help a little bit, but I have not found "the final one".
I will continue looking for and reading diferent threads in this forum with interesting information. But the first I need is faith, and believe that I can get well.
You can't imagine how much helps me know you are here.

[Iratxe]

This is for you, IUN.

I do not know if you will read this message, but I have not dared to put a message of mine in others thread.
It is not easy to express emotions in a language that is not your mother tongue.

So just, I'm really sorry for what you're going through.

I fully understand how you could get to this situation. I don't usually drink because I take a lot of medication, but this summer I've drink a little and for me it's the most effective way to feel normal for a while.
And when the day to day becomes too hard we have to do something to be able to continue.

But you will overcome it, you have your faith, which I see is very strong.

In Spanish I would say "Animo!".

Iratxe.

[invalidusername]

Hi Iratxe...

 

I am always following messages, but it depends on my work and studies as to how quick I can keep up with replies. But I thank you for posting this message.

 

I can really understand what it is you are saying in your message. The danger with alcohol is that it will always be able to help but it can become too much. It becomes addictive. And you are right it can make you feel normal for a while - it really does, but then it never lasts. But it is so easy to get more of what is needed to feel normal again. 

 

What is very strange is that I need some drink to complete my studies. I do not understand it. All of this week, I could not find a reason to write my paper for my research, but today, I bought a bottle of wine and I worked without a break for nearly 4 hours and finished the work - and it was all because of the wine. I don't understand. I would rather not have just one day a week, I much prefer to write a little everyday, but I will not drink this much wine every day!! 

 

Thank you for your concern and words of support. I am sure you are right in that I will overcome it with faith. This is something that alcohol can never take away...

 

The Spanish word for me now is "determinación", which is very similar to the English equivalent...

 

Thank you again 

 

IUN

[Iratxe]

Oh, my god!
I am every day a bit worse since I tried (not succesfully) to reduce the alprazolam 0,5mgrs (september 6). Someway this fact affected to the cymbalta withdrawal. Right now I would like to be dead.

When I wake up in the morning I have such a terrible and hurting sensation going out from my diafragma, it is unbearable. I'm at the limit of what I can bear. The upper part of my body burns so hard. I am all the day with this sensations, depressed, nervous, and distressed.
I am alone at home until 3:00 p.m. when my 14-year-old daughter comes home to have lunch from school. And it's very painful for me that she can see me like this. She has her own problems (recovering from anorexia and a genetic syndrome with serious health problems), my situation is affecting her.


I did not want more medication but I have to do something. I have the option to increase the Brintelix (vortioxetina) from 15mgrs to 20 mgrs (psychiatrist proposal). I think that when I started taking Brintelix it was not a big change, but I continued with it to help the cymbalta withdrawal.

I am also thinking to increase cymbalta dosis. I don't mind if I have to take it all my life.

And there is the option of trying hydroxyzine. But I have already the QT long due to the medication, even if the antidepressant I take are not in the list of medications that prolong the QT (I have a predisposition to long QT due to a genetic mutation). How dosis of hydroxyzine did you take? If I take it, it should be in a smalll dosis. Long QT is very dangerous, I am asyntomatic for now, but my daughter had several syncopes when she was 3 and 4 (she take betablockers since then and she has now an IAD implanted). It is a very bad arritmia that can take you to sudden cardiac death.

I need someone help to make a decision.

Thank you so much.
Iratxe.

[Iratxe]

Sorry, not and IAD but and ICD implanted.

[Iratxe]

And anorexy not anorexia. Very hard for me to use my head now. And I worry for everything, even it is a word that it is not well written.

[fishinghat]

Hydroxyzine can be used in a couple of ways. 

 

One is as necessary for episodic anxiety. That often involves 50 mg as needed but not to exceed 200 mg /day.

 

The other is a continual low dose. Doses like 25 mg every 6 to 8 hours is a common example. As hydroxyzine is helpful for sleep my dr put me on three 25 mg doses during the day and 50 mg before bedtime. I have seen where the maximum dose is said to be no more than 400 mg/day.

[Iratxe]

All right. Not recomended more than 100 mg/day with long QT. But it looks like this dose could help.
Thanks.
Iratxe

[Iratxe]

My psychotherapist says that my biggest problem is my fear. Fear that I have created because of my sensations related to the wihdrawal of the anxiety itself. But I feel that there is a fear created by the withdrawal of the medication (apart from the fear as a reaction).
Have you felt that fear can be physical and not just a reaction of your mind?

[Iratxe]

"related to the withdrawal OR the anxiety itself" I meant