15 replies to this topic

[gettingoffpoison]

I found this info very interesting and helpful,

 

"But why do I hear people talking about benefits from these SSRI-AntiDepressants?", you might want to ask in this stage. "They surely must work somehow don't they?" The answer is yes, they "work" somehow, but not in a very proper way. The mechanism of action on serotonergic neurons implies a lot of other neuro- endocrine responses. What actually happens when you increase serotonergic neuronal activity or elevate your serotonin levels is this: the stress hormones "Cortisol" & "Adrenaline" (Epinephrine) in the brain and body are triggered by increased serotonergic activity or elevated serotonin levels. It is a natural reaction from the body to combat the excessive serotonin levels. These released hormones, cortisol and adrenaline, are secreted from the "Adrenal Glands." They give the human personality a boost, producing a euphoric state, which can last for a prolonged period of time. In this manner SSRI-AntiDepressants initially produce the deceptive results the doctor and "patient" are both expecting. *

 

If a patient continues to ingest a particular SSRI-antidepressant over a prolonged period of time, eventually the bodies Adrenal Glands may lose their efficiency and "Adrenal Exhaustion Syndrome" will be the end result. Adrenal Exhaustion causes levels of adrenaline initially to fall and levels of cortisol to rise. Ultimately, also cortisol levels fall. When untreated, Adrenal Exhaustion will lead to seriously declining physical health. Many (former) SSRI-AntiDepressant users reported fatigue as a long term side-effect or were diagnosed with "Chronigue Fatigue Syndrome." People suffering from stress are generally diagnosed with this disorder. Symptoms range from simple exhaustion to much more complex problems that are secondary to excessive output of adrenal hormones in the bloodstream, leading to Adrenal Exhaustion. Unlike the other hormones, it takes a long time before the Adrenal Glands have their adrenaline levels restored. Could we say that the SSRI-AntiDepressant "works" by slowly excavating the body's Adrenal Glands?

 

*   [ Actually, when a family doctor (GP) or psychiatrist is observing a patient in a "euphoric" state of being, this should ring warning bells immediately! The drug induced (iatrogenic) conditions Akathisia & Mania are well documented in the medical litarature. Drug induced Mania, an abnormally elated mental state, typically characterized by feelings of euphoria, racing thoughts and talkativeness, is a "forerunner" of Akathisia, a neurologically driven agitation ranging from mild leg tapping, feeling "caffeinated" to severe panic, an extreme manic state and hyper-sensitivity of the nervous system.   Akathisia can lead to suicidal, aggressive and/or homicidal thoughts and behaviours. When a doctor or psychiatrist is observing symptoms of mania and/or akathisia in a patient, SSRI-AntiDepressant use should be discontinued immediately!    The pharmaceutical companies are well informed regarding above mentioned conditions and the capacity of their antidepressant inducing these symptoms. Therefore it is strongly advised to medical professionals, physicians, to monitor a patient very closely after prescription of (SSRI) anti-depressant treatment.    In the field of Bio-Psychiatry it was a conventional common thought that hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) system dysregulation/hyperactivity (and thus excessive secretion of cortisol) played an important role in the pathophysiology of depression and that normalization of HPA axis hyperactivity could be achieved by (SSRI) anti-depressant treatment, and thus relief of depression. However, a study and a case report involving the non-SSRI antidepressant Remeron (mirtazapine) and a review show us that nor amelioration of HPA system dysregulation, nor reduction of cortisol secretion in depressed patients is correlated with relief of symptoms of depression. See: (1), (2), (3). Furthermore, a study developed by D. Jezova & R. Duncko, Laboratory of Pharmacological Neuroendocrinology, demonstrated that repeated SSRI-antidepressant treatment in healthy men does not inhibit, but enhances stress-induced pituitary hormone release (neuroendocrine activation). Cortisol levels failed to be modified by antidepressants. A simple search through available PubMed articles uncovers clearly that SSRI-antidepressants not only fail to modify cortisol, but actually stimulate/increase cortisol release. See: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6).    Initially the rise in cortisol & adrenaline (secreted from the Adrenal Glands) may create the illusion of a patient making progress in his/her situation, but a potential tragedy may be surfacing very soon. It is very well known that (SSRI-AntiDepressant induced) increased cortisol secretion can lead to violent suicidal behaviour.

(I would like to encourage you to use your discernment when viewing antidepressant involved suicide/homicide/violence cases represented by the media. In the section casualties of this website, these cases are carefully stored up to be a "silent" witness for the future, in order to testify regarding the devastating & powerful destructive effects these "legal drugs" exercised on children, adolescents and adults, not discriminating between men and women). ]

 

Note: with SNRIs (which "increases" serotonin AND norepinepherine), the stress on the adrenal glands is even worse than with an SSRI.

 

Another snippets:

 

Using your rationale, higher serotonin creates agitation, anxiety and depression.....and only when the body slows production of serotonin and balance is achieved again, does the patient feel better. So what was achieved, other than now having altered neurochemistry that requires constant dosing a a drug to maintain. You have a drug attempting to keep serotonin high and a body decreasing production to combat that high serotonin....now stop the drug and you have a REAL chemical imbalance.

How about what happens to the rest of the neurochemistry in the body when you alter serotonin? Adrenalin increased, resulting in a low level mania, which can feel pretty good initially.....dopamine down, in response to the serotonin being elevated...not so good.

Your assertion leads one to believe that serotonins effects work in a vacuum, not having an effect of any other bodily functions....nice for a quick commercial, but not accurate in any way.

Yes, an ssri can, in some cases "lift a cloud" temporarily, but at what cost down the line?

[TryinginFL]

gop,

 

Thanks so much for the info - indeed interesting!

[gail]

Thanks, yes, interesting but...

But I rather die from adrenal exhausted syndrome after 10 or 20 years of using ssri than living in anxiety that makes me want to die every single day.

That is hell! And when I say hell, I mean HELL. Been there, more than I bargained for with the wrong ad, meaning crapalta! Been there with another med. also. For the moment, I am doing quite well with a tiny dosage, others need more.

I am responding to the article GOF, not to you personally.

[FiveNotions]

GettingOffPoison, please proceed with caution with respect to anything by "Dr." Tracy.

 

She is not a medical doctor, she apparently has a PhD in psychology or "human health services" ... there's very little available about her actual qualifications.

 

I haven't been able to find anything by her, or about her, in any established / recognized research or health journals. But I did find articles that she has "published" (as paid advertisements) on conspiracy websites, like that of Jeff Rense (rense.com).

 

Also, don't visit the Rense site unless you've got your antivirus / malware / spyware totally up-to-date and turned on. My system fired back an immediate alert at me when I went there just now. 

[fishinghat]

Well put FN. This excerpt below is from Wikipedia. Many have researchers have tested for 'adrenal fatigue' with no success.

 

"Adrenal fatigue or hypoadrenia are terms used in alternative medicine to describe the unscientific belief that the adrenal glands are exhausted and unable to produce adequate quantities of hormones, primarily the glucocorticoid cortisol. Adrenal fatigue should not be confused with recognized forms of adrenal dysfunction such as adrenal insufficiency or Addison's Disease.[1][2][3]

The term "adrenal fatigue", which was coined in 1998 by James M. Wilson,[4] may be applied to a collection of mostly nonspecific symptoms.[1] There is no scientific evidence supporting the concept of adrenal fatigue and it is not recognized as an actual diagnosis by the medical community.[3]

Blood or salivary testing is sometimes offered but there is no evidence that adrenal fatigue exists or can be tested.[1] The concept of adrenal fatigue has given rise to an industry of dietary supplements marketed to treat this condition. These supplements are largely unregulated in the U.S., are ineffective, and in some cases may be dangerous.[1]"

[FiveNotions]

hey, what the heck happened to the long response I posted just prior to my caution about "Dr." Tracy?

 

I included the citation to the article that GOP posted, a discussion of that, and citations to about 4 articles that discuss the fallacy of adrenal fatigue ....

 

I know that what I wrote actually posted on this thread, because I proofread it after it posted.

[FiveNotions]

okay, here's the long post I made earlier ... unfortunately, I put in the other thread that GOP has going, where the same adrenal fatigue article is quoted ... reposting it here ...sorry ...
 
--------------------
Hi GettingOffPoison !

Interesting post ... and very thought-provoking ...

Since you didn't cite your source, I found it, and am adding it here ... when posting information from sources other than yourself, please do always indicate the source, and give a citation / link so that others can find it and read it in the original.

The article you quoted from is found at one of the websites run/administered by a "Dr Ann Blake Tracy" -- Antidepressantfacts.com.

The link to the article itself is: http://www.antidepre...pinealstory.htm

Here are my own thoughts on this.

I haven't yet researched Dr. Tracy, but her websites do not give a particularly good first impression -- they strike me as less than authoritative, hyperbolic in their text and claims, and not grounded in solid research. She's a very good self-promoter, however.

For example, Dr. Tracy, on a related website she has ("DrugAwareness.com), describes herself as "founder of the International Coalition for DrugAwareness (ICFDA)." She goes on to say that she:

"was and is the first amongst the "front fighters" in the battle against the anti-depressant hype with the courage to undertake action to educate the public. Through the years she has gathered an abundance of horrendous experiences and shocking facts regarding the devastating side effects of these drugs. With her ample knowledge, experience as well as her activities across the United States, she has become an authority in this untransparent and complex field. We of AntiDepressantsFacts invite you to visit her brilliant website which is utmost educative."

This alone gives me much pause for concern. As soon as I can verify who Dr. Tracy is, and what her qualifications are, I'll add them here.

---
Back when I was in hard withdrawal, most of 2013, I did a lot of research on adrenal fatigue, and came up with my own decision that there was / is sufficient solid evidence and research to possibly dispute it ... I had considered it as a possibility for my own issues, but after spending several days poring through research, alternative medicine sites, and discussion forum posts, I reached my own decision that it's not a genuine medical condition / diagnosis, and that to pursue it, in application to myself, could be more harmful than helpful to my (already fragile) health ...

Here are some items that I had stashed in my files, offered to expand this discussion and present another viewpoint ....

Wikipedia article on "Adrenal Fatigue"
https://en.wikipedia...Adrenal_fatigue

"Adrenal fatigue or hypoadrenia are terms used in alternative medicine to describe the unscientific belief that the adrenal glands are exhausted and unable to produce adequate quantities of hormones, primarily the glucocorticoid cortisol. Adrenal fatigue should not be confused with recognized forms of adrenal dysfunction such as adrenal insufficiency or Addison's Disease."

"The term "adrenal fatigue", which was coined in 1998 by James M. Wilson, may be applied to a collection of mostly nonspecific symptoms. There is no scientific evidence supporting the concept of adrenal fatigue and it is not recognized as an actual diagnosis by the medical community."

New Fact Sheets Dispel Myths of Adrenal Fatigue and Wilson’s Temperature Syndrome
Endocrine Society, 2010
https://www.endocrin...adrenal-fatigue

The Top 3 Myths of Adrenal Fatigue
Alan Christianson, naturopathic medical doctor
Huffington Post, 2014
http://www.huffingto..._b_6179874.html

Fatigued by a Fake Disease
Science-Based Medicine, 2010
https://www.scienceb...a-fake-disease/
-------------------------

[FiveNotions]

Cross-posted from GOP's other thread ..

------------
Some additional information ... this "Dr" Tracy's organization, "International Coalition for Drug Awareness" may well be a front-group for Scientology ... affiliated with the "Citizens Commission on Human Rights" (CCHR), yet another Scientology front-group.

http://www.holysmoke...oups-latest.htm

Now I'm going to check the Form 990 (the IRS annual return for non-profit organizations) for this organization. It'll tell me everything I need to know about who she is, and what she's about.
------------------------

[FiveNotions]

I've searched the IRS database for non-profit registrations and annual filings, and couldn't find anything for Tracy's organization.

But I did find a brief Wikipedia article about her and the organization ... it says that she had her PhD revoked in 2012.

https://en.wikipedia..._Drug_Awareness
------------------
From the George Wythe University website:
http://news.gw.edu/?p=393

"Revoked degrees
Meanwhile, our internal investigation found two degrees from the early days of the school that have failed scrutiny of the faculty and board. These degrees were improperly awarded by Mr. DeMille and, in accordance with policy, have been revoked.

We are especially concerned that any alumnus would use a credential to misrepresent themselves as an having expertise for which they are not properly qualified. The potential risk for causing public harm is real and justifies a public response.

The first of these degrees was awarded to a book author by the name of Ann Blake Tracy in 1995.

Tracy’s student file contains conclusive evidence that the PhD authorized by Oliver DeMille was never earned by any coursework, but was simply awarded for Tracy’s presentation of a book she had already published entitled “Prozac: Panacea or Pandora.” There is no record of Tracy enrolling in, attending, or receiving grades for any regular classes.

Notwithstanding this, Tracy’s degree was granted on equal terms with the degrees other students earned by completing formal PhD coursework, practica and supervised dissertations. Records also exist for her payment of tuition fees, which negates the possibility that it was an honorary degree. Still, favors for Tracy were granted, such as a 50% scholarship discount and allowance for delayed payment on her balance.

 

From the correspondence on file, DeMille also displayed strong personal support for Tracy’s activism on the risks of anti-depressant drugs. Based on the available evidence, it is impossible to determine whether this ideological agreement contributed to their motives, but there is no excuse for this type of exception. It is unjustifiable and reprehensible."
---------------------

[FiveNotions]

The article GOP posted mentions two important hormones -- adrenaline (epinephrine) and cortisol, both of which are deeply involved in the body's stress response, and also relate to depression and bi-polar. We've had some good discussions about both of them here on the forum.
 
I just checked the archives, and here's a link to a good discussion, started by FH:
 
Understanding Anxiety (posted by FH, scroll down for info on cortisol)
https://www.cymbalta...andingf-anxiety

I didn't find anything as good in the archives that focuses on adrenaline. I'll try to do some research tomorrow and will post what I find here ... will look especially for articles that discuss the connection between SSRI's and these two hormones. FH, do you have anything else on this?

Also, here are the wiki articles on each:

Cortisol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

FTA: "Cortisol is a steroid hormone, in the glucocorticoid class of hormones, and is produced in humans by the zona fasciculata of the adrenal cortex within the adrenal gland.[1] It is released in response to stress and low blood-glucose concentration."

Epinephrine (Adrenaline)
https://en.wikipedia...tional_response

FTA: "Epinephrine is normally produced by both the adrenal glands and certain neurons. It plays an important role in the fight-or-flight response by increasing blood flow to muscles, output of the heart, pupil dilation, and blood sugar."

[fishinghat]

Dr. James Wilson, who originally coined the term adrenaline fatique, is not a medical dr but has a degree in nutrition, is a chiropractor and a PhD in naturopathic medicine. His income is from developing and marketing supplements for the treatment of adrenal fatigue.  See...

http://www.adrenalfa...ho-is-dr-wilson

[gettingoffpoison]

Thank you, I appreciate your feedback in this interesting subject.

 

My interest in researching “adrenal fatigue” derives from the personal observation about this extremely long hangover we call “withdrawal”. How is it possible? I think a very good explanation is that these drugs put the body in an artificial “overload” state which, in the end, is not provided by the drug itself but by some mechanism of the body. In which this theory of adrenal fatigue (we can see it this way) could be a good explanation.  

 

What I find very convincing about this is that eventually the miracle drug stops working, generally sided with some other new health problems, physical or psychological.

 

The logic about posting this is to point out that SSNIs and SNRIs may be good to go pass by a particular very hard moment but not as a lifestyle. Of course, this wouldn’t be such a great business… for Eli Lily

 

FN, about what you point out, let’s take into account that many of us have assisted with MD, a very well “qualified respectable psychiatrist” who apparently know nothing about  the withdrawal effects, how to effectively wean down or about the side effects of long term use.

 

My point of view from what I have experienced, seen in people I know, read on this forum and made research is that these “respectable PHDs”, are just the low level pushers of a mega cartel called Elli Lily, part of the “big pharma complex”.

 

Now, about trusting “published papers” let’s remember that, research and publishing, needs lots of money, and that big pharma spends huge amounts on this. This I have seen in my professional experience in sleep disorders in children and ADHD. With their research they promote minimizing true root causes to keep treating symptoms with is a never ending drug story, which turns out into drug addict and a great business.

 

Remember “science” is the new way to create “dogma”, now a days; many times “science” is just pseudo- science.

 

Another thing, remember that the fact that something is regulated or approved by government doesn’t mean anything. Do you really trust that US government is looking out for you like a caring and loving paternal figure?

 

You point out,

 

"was and is the first amongst the "front fighters" in the battle against the anti-depressant hype with the courage to undertake action to educate the public. Through the years she has gathered an abundance of horrendous experiences and shocking facts regarding the devastating side effects of these drugs. With her ample knowledge, experience as well as her activities across the United States, she has become an authority in this untransparent and complex field. We of AntiDepressantsFacts invite you to visit her brilliant website which is utmost educative."

 

This alone gives me much pause for concern.

 

How is it that this concerns you?

 

Now, someone sells you supplements the other sells you drugs, I seems FH you state you should mistrust the supplement seller over the drug seller?

 

I would probably trust neither and focus more on my lifestyle, exercise, healthy food, self-awareness, meditation, getting away from toxic people, environment, family, jobs…etc. In my case I started getting involved in this after the crash so I not judging it as we should all know better from before.   

[fishinghat]

Hi gop

 

The research has shown that Cymbalta physically damages the dendrites in the anxiety and fear circuits in the amygdala and hippocampus of the brain. Even months afterward there is no sign of significant repair. This is very similar to what has been shown in the benzos. With the benzos the recovery of the synapses takes 2 years or more of being free from the drug. As we all know nerves heal slowly and we pay the price for it.

[FiveNotions]

Dr. Tracy is involved with Scientology, her PhD was revoked, her writings are inarticulate, poorly reasoned, and poorly researched. She's a self-promoter, who's involved with this stuff to push Scientology (secretly) and to make money for herself.

 

That's my objection to her. She's dangerous.

 

I'm with FH on this ...

 

Don't let yourself "overthink" all this, GOP ... what's important is to let yourself heal ... there's no definitive answer to any of our questions ... if there was, we wouldn't need to be here 

[gettingoffpoison]

True!!

[TryinginFL]

I wouldn't touch anything that was remotely connected to Scientology!